Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa-Tabs

oops! too late.. just ignore and go ahead with the topic.

 

its just the nature of the music
how would 100 guitarists shredding at the same time sound? just as horrible.
at the same time, a 100 tamburas droning in a carnatic concert might just sound amazing.

 

Chichu,

i dont think most people in IGT understand Carnatic music in the first place. Carnatic music, is not just music. Its Devotional music...i donno how to translate it, but in tamil one would say ' deiviga kalai'. The Trio, Thygaraja, Muthuswamy Dik****ar, Shyama Shastry, were all not just composers like the modern day people, but were totally smitten by God. They never did plan a song and the lyrics. They just sang out of devotion. They used to have a lot of bhaktas who would take notes and pass the same on which is how we have accumulated their compositions.

St Thygaraja was a person who would go door to door singing praises of the lord for one pidi of rice. Legend goes that Lord Muruga himself gave Muthuswamy Dik****ar some sweet in his hand and told him to sing, which is when he sang his first composition in mayamalavagowlai. Devotion, not mass appeal. At the same time, people like Purandara Dasa, have set down the guidelines based on everything, just because anything needs a framework.

Carnatic music is not intended to get mass appeal. The reason MSS was so liked was because of the devotion she sang with. You can have a 100 veenas playing. or a whole symphony for that matter. Mark my words, even then the "mass" will not understand carnatic music.

this is not rock and roll. and the purists will never let it become anything so common. look at the songs that come out in the film industry. Appidi podu, i just heard a new song in thirupachi.."appan panna thapu la". yea its catchy, yeah it sells. I bet you twenty years down the lane, nobody will remember this. There are so many beautiful old tamil songs...apart from the older generation...the younger generation does not go out of their way to listen to it. This kind of music is forgettable, which is a direct outcome for your mass apeal. Your masses may like something today, but something different tomoro. You keep changing yourself, and soon you dont know who you are.

Do that for film music, leave carnatic music alone. I suggest you take some carnatic lessons, and enhance your knowledge. Once you do so, you will understand what i'm talking about.

 

well offtopic.. but i find it hilarious that diksh-i-tar's name is ***** censored by zooms script hehehe.

 

now ona serious note.. i dont think carnatic music is for me then... i am not good enough for it from what u describe.. i will settle for rahman and ilayaraja

you sound similar to a post on hard-rock metal music i read on another desi site. the person was reviewing this desi metal band performance.. and was lamenting on the fact that these idiot crowd who didnt know anything about metal music was doing bhangra dance to a song which went some thing like die die DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE ... and how how rock and metal and death metal should be reserved for only certain "knowledgable" audience.. and others should be denied entry.. somehow your sound similar. and btw i know for a fact that u just love appadi podu :

 

jay sometimes i donno whether to hug you or kill you!
i do like appidi podu..
i will forget appidi podu tho.
i will never forget maha ganapathim

 

ok for the last time... and i have been a culprit too.. this is all fftopic:

ananth i will send you gamakkas for basic raagas like mohanam hamsaduani etc. incorportae them in yer tabs.

Jay

 

this thread has gone so far that posting tabs for scales will look off topic...
anyway, speaking of Dikshidhar's first composition in mayamalavagowla, the original way it was composed went like Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa Sa Ni Dha Pa Ma Ga Ri Sa where the first few swaras were sung in first speed, next few in second speed (double of first) and the remaining in 3rd speed (double of second) - I don't remember the exact words but thats the funda. Now mayamalavagowla is the raagam in whihc beginners are taught and they r taught to sing it in first speed, then double of that and then double of that again. Incorporating this simple logic in his first composition was sheer genius. Lots of carnatic compositions incorporate tricky math in their rhythm and some very interesting swara patterns. Closing your eyes and calling it bhakti and treating it like some kind of mystery is just being shortsighted. This is the reason carnatic has its clique and is a mystery to others outside who have started to care less and less. Can you imagine the amount of scientific study that goes into the understanding of mozart's counterpoints? understanding carnatic from that mathematical point of view is more gratifying than delving in bhakti (well thats my personal opinion).
There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from studying carnatic that way. yet I find it really sad that even people trained in carnatic fail to understand modes, intervals and chords, because of their approach to music. there is a lot of gap to be bridged from both directions.

 

Ananth, In my view its the tricky math rhythm that throws a lay person off-course.

Harini, what did I say that inspired you to deliver such a big lecture?

 

Allright. Thanks for your opinion.

 

harini, u r a very nice and sweet person. I can vouch for that. u just started off in the wrong note here. Lets reset that, do a system reboot. Continue with your Crantaic 101 thread. I think IGT will benifit if we have lot of carnatic based threads. People who are not aware of this music form can learn from it.

And I do agree with u that I cannot blame carnatic music 100% for the problems indian audience has..

 

Thx harini.. your suggestion to "take some carnatic lessons, and enhance your knowledge" has motivated me. I always had been a critic of carnatic music because it always sucked to listen. There are few exceptions(some specific renditions) and I like them probably due to an unknown personal taste I would have acquired for some raagas(ex. shivaranjani).

Now I am willing to learn more about carnatic, just to be a more informed critic Anyway let me start my education with some basic questions.

1. Aarohana/Avarohana

For example if we take the notes in Bilahari from ananth's previous post in this thread...
Aarohanam: S R2 G3 P D2 S
Avarohanam: S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

All it says is that if your composition is in Bilahari raaga then you should not jump to M1 or N3 when going from low pitch to high pitch. am I right with this assessment?

2. I have always heard lots of debates on whether a specific film song is in specific raaga but not so much about taal.. any specific reason?

later folks..

 

these are just my views, I hope experts can correct/add to them
singing/playing a raagam is not just following its aarohanam/avarohanam. It takes a long time of practise and attention to master the "feel" of a raaga. This feel comes about by a combination of the following (and more):
* the patterns and restrictions set by the aarohanam, avarohanam
* characteristic phrases of that raaga
* characteristic starting and ending swaras of taht raaga. i.e. for singing certain raaga, you may not always end in Sa, specific raagas have one or more characteristic startign and ending swaras. experts can give more details
* characteristic speed of the raaga. some raagas are sung fast some slow etc.
* the approach to certain swaras. Two raagas may have the same swara (say G2) but that swara will be approached in completely different ways. experts can explain better.

About taalam:
taalam is a universal concept, its not restricted to carnatic. Every form of music has some form of rhythm - each form has its own notation. I was amused when we were at a light music concert and my friend near me (whos learning carnatic) was amazed to find it fit the adi taalam cycle. of course it does! Its just that taalam is laid down rigorously in carnatic, with different forms of beats etc. and have proper names associated. Some odd taalams in tamil film music:
Meettaadha oru veenai - Kanda chapu (5 beats)
Isaiyil thodanguthamma (hey ram) - Mishra chapu (7 beats)
Ganga karai mannan (varsham 16) - Mishra chapu (7 beats)
thats to name a few.
of coruse, that may not be the exact taalam name (as they vary with "nadai" etc, for instance u might have a 6 beat song but it mgiht be a "tisra nadai" adi taalam) experts can explain that better.

 

ananth, what constitutes "feel"? It cannot be the opinion of the carnatic master, right? He/she might be flat wrong and the student ends up spending a fortune just to get the right feel

Can you discuss more about Bilahari as a primer..

1. Pls explain what you know about phrases in the raaga, Bilahari.
2. Starting and ending swaras
3. I really dont care about the speed but if you know u can give the input.
4. approach to swara? may be we really need an expert

 

its hard to describe the "Feel" of anything. how will u tell if something is blues? or jazz?
Anyway, I am not an expert to describe these things in detail.
Read this column by Seetha Narayanan, to get the inside idea about Bilahari (and general idea about usage of raagas):
https://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305936

 

ananth --- from the article

"Careless singing or accidental omission of the note N in the avarohanam immediately brings in the raga Mohanam. Hence, care must be taken to include N in avarohanam always."

all the notes in the avarohanam must be hit in the same sequence? how can you compose anything like that? is it more like you compose anything and it would end up as some raaga? I would listen to "dorakuna" tonight and see...

btw I miss harini's input

 

yea the restrictions are pretty rigorous, but that doesn't inhibit creativity.
Its just the beauty and genius of carnatic that there are so many raagas with so many restrictions but each can be improvised completely.
its like this: a child who learns some words in a language can construct several sentences in that language using those words, which may all be good.
another student may learn complex structures in that language such as active speech/passive speech, complex, compound sentences and loads of stuff, and use this to construct a poem. A poem may be all in passive speech and sound beautiful and unrestricted. But it will definitely have more cohesiveness and structure and overall beauty and harmony, than a poem which mixed up passive and active speech. So more restrictions might result in maintaining harmony without restricting creativity.

 

hmm. the beauty of your post is that it really is as complicated as carnatic. I think I got what you said, but I can never be so sure.

anyway I think listening to dorakuna(the song in the movie) would provide me some answers. I can only hope that she is wrong!!!

any idea why "the" experts are keeping mum?

 

Hey chichu,

Sorry i was busy at work.

Try playing these phrases, these are the jeevan pidi for bilahari.

G P D P M G R G P M G R

S N R S S N D P D R S

G P D P D P M G R

D G R S N D P.

ok chichu, the main idea when u sing this kind of ragam is to make sure that when ur going up, as in s r g, you dont sing ma or ni, and when coming down ofcourse you can sing all the swarams. NOw when singing aalapanai or swaram, sometimes it gets confusing, coz in order to have continuity and some amount of beauty, you cant just refrain to going up or coming down rite, which is why one has to be careful not to sing G M for example by mistake. I havent read all the posts.
Let me know if this helps.

P S ...dont listen to dorakuna. Listen to Ekadantam in bilahari. its a very pretty composition and more authentic. when people put carnatic songs in movies, its changed a little, dont pounce on me for saying that please! im jes saying if you want to hear what pure bilahari from a carnatic standpoint is, listen to ekandantam. its a heavy song and has most of the typical bilahari phrases

 

ChiChu,
Regarding your question about taalam, the reason you dont hear too much is because most film songs are composed in aadi talam, which is 8 beats per cycle.

There are some nice songs which are in different ragams tho..lemme mention a few. im assuming that people know tamil songs here also.

1) Dil Ke jHaroken - shami kappor song, dont remember movie, is in thisra chapu
2) There is a thillana in thakshak- dheem ta dhari - its in rupakam..

let me know if this helps.
also ananth/kishmu anybody for that matter...let me know if there is any song that you guys need notation for or the words for.
thanks
harini