Looking for a good amp for cleans.

Go through this list as well...https://members.fortunecity.com/nrbq1/tinnitus.html

 

Jeez dude, I'm not mad enough to play that loud...Though now I'm considering telling the drummer to use brushes or something. Drums are really too loud, and our band practices in a small room. I'm actually happy that I don't attend too many concerts (specially metal), and I play classical guitar, soft instrument, doesn't ring my ears...
Edit - And I'm not tone freak unlike the majority, more into composition, I'll probably never use a 4x12.

Now instead of telling me all that and making me paranoid, tell me what speakers will be too loud and what will be too soft, ditto how many watts, and the rest of the questions. >.>

 

My answers are in bold.

 

Sweet, thanks for the reply, man.
1. Norm. vs Live Good question. While I personally play clean all the time, I will need the live version for the band I'm in and for some future versatility.
Verdict - Live version.

2. Wattage This one is hard. It'll generally be pubs, bars and inns for me for a long while, and I don't know which places will have mics and a decent soundman, and which places won't. On the contrary, a venue with regular performances going and an area large enough to require the use of mics will obviously be mic'd, though there's still an uncertainty factor with that here.
About monitoring, I'm not really experienced with live performances) - assuming it's mic'd, it'll still be close enough to me on stage to hear, won't it? I don't like to line out to PA. (maybe I should consider getting a dedicated sound guy?).

It'll lend flexibility and independence to the rig. But I don't know if it's needed - what does your performing experience say?

Is it better to stay convenient with an 18 watt, or to keep a margin for trouble and get the 30 watt?
Verdict - ???

3. Speaker config. There seems to be uber-mixed opinion on whether twin speakers give more volume and bass response (I know I didn't ask for tonal difference explicitly, I forgot.) than single. Doesn't seem like I'll need that much volume from the look of things, but unless I'm buying a head+cab, a future (post purchase) decision to go 2x10 will be really (preventably and unnecessarily) costly.

The importance of 1x vs 2x depends a lot on whether I buy a head or a combo. (#5)
As for 10" vs 12", most would say 12" for more bass, and I've read in places that 10 is more "responsive".
Verdict - ???

4. Speaker model I think I'll go with Tube 10s for now. Other choices could make things pricier. I probably won't be able to tell the difference that much, not at this stage. Most importantly, I can always get speakers changed/get a new cab (half stack's flexibility ftw).
Verdict - Tube 10s

5. Combo vs H+C I wanted a head+cab for aesthetic reasons. Plus, they're pocket friendly IF I want to upgrade later on (which I may, or may not). But there's more practical sense in buying a combo. If there's a case (like this) which can carry a head and cab, it could still get a look-in. Edit - I did a bit of research and found two discussions pertaining to this, and they say a head and 2x10 in a live-in case is a job for two people to carry. It's funny, that 2x10 combo case back there seemed portable enough. I must mention - if I can't carry it around alone, it won't do!
Another very important point for this - can combos be connected to bigger cabs? Conversely, can heads be connected to other amps' speakers?
Verdict - ???

Tubes
6, 7 - Yeah, I too am waiting to know about what he has to say on this.
8. Yup, there's the point about different manufacturers, but I was wondering about different models.

Misc.
9. I thought something like this would really look out of the box, and could actually be of practical sense if doing something on a dark stage. Check out the knobs on the upper right. https://www.gpanagopoulos.com/eshop/images/detailed_images/akai-apc-40.jpg
You're right though, it probably won't get that much use because I'm more of a set-it-and-forget-it person. And it'll probably add to the cost >.>
10, 11 - Resolved. Thanks!

---

Still open to other answers, knowledge and opinions on what's best for this requirement.

About portability - I'm considering amps assuming that I can transport them 3-4 times a week in an amp case inside a (bumpy, jerky) bus. It just occurred to me that maybe tube amps won't take well to that. If they're too fragile even to be moved around that regularly, how and when I use mine at all will, sadly, have to be looked into. >_>

 

Answers in bold.

 

Excellent, lots of things are cleared out, picture is a lot clearer.

1. Norm. vs Live - Live.
2. Wattage
I'll look into the 18 watts vs 30 watts. Size, weight and volume need to be taken into consideration, and while I have a rough idea of how it'll be, I want to see it in person before finalizing. Edit - Why can't I use the 30 watt for home practice? There's always the master volume, right?
Verdict - Both options are open till I see them, but I'm assuming 18 watts till then.
3. Speaker config. 4. and model
Yeah, I decided on 1x10. I won't be able to find too much difference in the sounds of different speakers at this stage, and I'm trying for a H+C setup (see #5) so it should not be a big deal, I can upgrade with ease. If and when I check out the amps and cabs, I'll see if 12" are not too big. But for now...
Verdict - 1x10 Tube 10s.
5. H+C vs Combo
No luck so far with live-in amp cases, but I'll keep looking. I'm hoping Ansar may help with this, but anyone know of any place I can get such a case bought/made?
An important factor is that (senile of me not to have noticed) there are external speaker outs and line outs on all BE3 amps. If I'm using a head's line out to the line input (is that where it'll go?), will it catch fire because of lack of a speaker? Great, if it works that way I may not even have to carry the cab half the time. (and if it does, there's always a dummy load, I think)
Verdict - H+C, more so if I can get a case and carry it alone.

'Preview'
BE3 Solution 18 Live Head + 1x10 Cab with Celestion Tube 10.
Case for it (probably custom made).

...decent! Thanks, thehundredthone.

 

here's my quick summary....

1. Live versions vs Normal versions- (shared controls+no footswitch vs individual controls+footswitch) Live version. (a little flexibility, right out of the box)

amps aren'T really manufactured as "live" or "normal" versions as such - a footswitch would be recommended in case you want to add a bit of boost though or switch channels.

2. 18 watts vs 33 watts
Will 18 watts be good enough for mid-size (using clean mainly) gigs, or 33 watts?
Some say 30 (tube) watts is an absolute minimum for gigging amps.
Ansar says in his FAQ that a 15 watt 1x10 will do for mid-size gigs.
(I don't know if the above two statements mean mic'd or unmic'd gigs; also, this could mean clean or distorted, and people generally tend to use distorted more, which would be louder)
I want to be able to handle mid-sized gigs unmic'd.

"loud" enough is not really an answer - rule of thumb - the lower the power, the less the clean headroom and worse the bass response. 18W are loud for sure, but they aren't clean loud. if you want cleans, there's no way i would recommend the 18W for a stage setting. my 18w plexi starts breaking up at about 40% of the volume pot. this is very loud, but only when played in my bedroom - i've never taken it on stage, but i think it would be lost there.

as for micing, i don't really think it's up to you - that's the sound guy's domain. unless you're playing in a small club, id on't see you getting away without a mic or a line out to the PA.

3. 1x10/1x12 vs 2x10/2x12

IMHO, definitely definitely 1x12" at least. 2x12" would be killer but only with coaters.

i've owned and played both, and 1x12 just feels a lot more responsive and interactive to me. there's a certain clarity

how much heavier - 2x12" will use double the wood, i'd expect it to be about twice as heavy as a 1x12". get coasters, save your back. my oversized 1x12"s weigh in at about 17kg each. i just feel 10" speakers work best for bass cabs, unless you have the cash for alnico blues and a 4x10" solid pine cab.... except for that amp, the 5F6-A bassman, i can't think of any really good sounding guitar amps that used 10" speakers. i guess they're fine for studio use, i'd like to FEEL my amp live though.

i disagree with thehundredthone - there is a DEFINITE bass loss with 10" speakers. open backed cabs will kill bass to a large extent anyway, but A/Bing the results of an amp at a louder volume can be startling - my 1X12 open backed speaker gives me the same bass response that my 1X10" sealed cab used to give me back in the day. the difference can be measured, hurt and felt. if you try to reduce cabinet dimensions and front-port in order to "compress" and even out the bass response, your high end wil be affected.

4. Tube 10s vs G10 Vintage vs Greenbacks/Vintage 30s?
Tube 10s are cheaper, I could get an amp earlier and more easily with that.
They even get 2x10s close to my budget.
What and how much is the sound quality difference?
Which one will give better cleans, more headroom, more volume?

V30s. if you have a 2x12" the V30/greenback combo is tried, tested and rightfully lauded.
the V30 is an extremely versatile speaker, does not compress too early and will be able to handle the higher wattage better than the other options listed.

i think the tube 10 is a bad idea for this case - you will want to crank the amp without the speaker farting out too much - i would probably use a tube 10 for a 5-15W amp myself.

this is the other reason that i would definitely go for a 1x12" is because i like to think about these things as longer term investments, and there is a much better variety of good 12" speakers available than of 10" speakers. so if you ever think you need to pull the V30s and pop in scumbacks, hempcones, vintage JBLs, heritage series et al, it becomes a lot simpler - cab modification isn't necessary - pull out the old, pop in the new.

as far is cab construction is concerned, i don't see a big price difference between 1x12 vs 1x10.

5. Combo vs Head+Cab
Will heads do a line out through other amps? The space my band jams at doesn't have a cab. I can't carry a head+cab all the way there. Can I 'line out' the head to my friend's amp?
Verdict - I don't think head+cab will be portable enough. ...Combo. *sigh*

you'll have to have the amp specially designed to do that.

KEEP IN MIND: NEVER RUN A TUBE AMP WITHOUT A SPEAKER/LOAD ATTACHED. YOU WILL CAUSE PERMANANT DAMAGE TO IT WITHIN MINUTES.

6. If an amp is marked to use a specific kind of tube (EL84 and 12AX7 in this case), can I replace it with other kinds? (a tube to give better warm cleans and more headroom, for instance. 6L6, maybe?)
7. If not, should I get the amp customized in construction to support a tube different from the default one? Wonder how much THAT should set me back.
8. What (default) tubes will be ideal for my stated requirements? If I have a EL84 and 12AX7 amp, what tubes *can* I upgrade it with so it's closer to the stated requirements?

preamp tubes can be replaced - the 12xx7s are generally interchangeable with other types, like 5751s and 12AT7s for somewhat lower gain.

power tubes: cannot be replaced just as you please... the EL84 is a 9-pin tube and for practical purposes, has no other substitute. 6L6, 6V6, 5881, EL34, KT88, KT77, KT66 all have the same base and pinout and can be interchanged to an extent, but you MUST rebias and also make sure that the power transformer has the juice to handle the higher current requirements of some of those tubes.

as for "ideal tubes"..... EL84s would fit the requirements well, the midrange is a bit more pronounced with them though. 6V6 may be a bit chimier and detailed. 6L6s run in typical fashion won't give you less than 40W or so, but are also great tubes. you'd best leave this to the designer at the end.

Miscellaneous issues
9. What knobs will be used? Can I get something that is LED backlit to show parameter levels? (I'll probably have to ask Ansar about this)

i'Ve told it to you before - everything is possible, just expensive, and this WILL be quite expensive if you want an LED in the knob. there will be extra circuitry involved too, more drilling work, etc. etc. i personally wouldn't bother unless you can set aside a fair amount of money just for aesthetics - i've never really seen a guitar amp with anything else besides a marking of some sort.

knobs depend son the builder, they're usually plastic chickenhead or marshall types though. i guess you could tell the builder what kind you want.

aluminum knobs, while sturdy and quite ***y, are a lot more expensive and have the unfortunate disadvantage that they will conduct unless lacquered.

10. One (probably stupid) question about multi-channel tube amps in general. If I'm in the clean channel (and the amp explicitly has a dirty channel), playing clean tones, and then suddenly I switch on a lot of boost and OD pedals...do I destroy the amp or does it overdrive like on a single channel amp?

it will simply overdrive. where did you get that crazy idea that it would go kaput? tube amps can handle a LOT more signal and voltage swing than solid state thanks to the high voltage on the plates.

11. Will using a clean boost give me more clean volume? (I don't understand the concept of clean boosts too well, help.)

not.... THAT much. depends on how your amp is set up more than anything else. if you want more clean volume, i would just run the clean channel of your amp louder, or use a compressor or something.

a clean boost is used by people who use inherently hot/dirty and particularly single channel amps - e.g., JCM800/900s, suhr badger, to simply make the signal from the guitar louder. you get a lot more overdrive that way, dynamics are preserved somewhat better than with compressors. on a clean channel, i would think that a clean boost would cause preamp clipping on louder notes.

 

just saw your pic of the APC as an example.... dude. DUDE. DUDE! honestly, if i didn't know better, i'd say you were trolling. the APC is completely digital with a tiny little computer there. those knobs interface directly with the µC. line 6 has it too? same reason. those aren't potentiometers in an analog circuit, they're encoders controlling digital parameters, pretty much.

if you want something like that as a custom job from a small-time builder, it will - at the very least - double the cost of your amplifier, if not triple it.

 

Well, it's a great coincidence, I just wrote to Ansar asking about a few of the things here, and the next second I saw yer post. Anyway, a lot of things are dependent on whether or not I can buy a head+cab (in turn reliant on whether or not I can get a case and cart it around alone). I'll try my level best to get a H+C - as a result, some specs suddenly aren't a big deal. 18 watts too less, new head. Tube 10s not cutting it, or I want a 2x12, new cab.

2. Wattage - Since I play clean largely, I need...loud cleans. 30 watts seems back in the choice, but it'll probably be pricier and heavier. I've asked Ansar for the price on the 30 watt head, will see accordingly.
3. Speaker config. - (What are coaters? ) Anyway, no twins for now, twins are out. As I said, I'll check both a 1x10 and a 1x12 out.
4. Speaker model - If I go with a 1x12, there's just the V30/Greenback option. :beer:
5. H+C vs Combo - I'm looking at solutions to solo-tote a half stack...if that doesn't work out, it's a combo x_x
6, 7, 8 Tubes

Aye, I fortunately put this question on the mail to Ansar.
9, 10, 11 - Lol! If I hadn't written off these ideas already, I couldn't afford to have a good laugh about them like I can now XD
9. The APC, I just meant it as an aesthetic, not schematic, example. An LED in the knob, like you said, is how I imagined it. I'll just let this dragon of an idea sleep and go with chicken knobs.
10. Something to do with my limited knowledge of tube amps coupled with how some have separate channels (I never understood how two channels worked with tube amps; I got the volume-rises-and-then-goes-into-OD concept of tube amps quite clearly, but never the 2 channel concept.).
11. :Lighten: Compressor! Wow, never thought about that, I'll try it out at some point of time!

And why does ye call Ansar a small time builder? :think:

Anyway, thanks a lot man. Ima go down to Mumbai sometime and check out his workshop and (hopefully) his amps. I have something of a decision here, and it'll be confirmed/rethought by testing them out.

 

with the APC, those LED indicators actually serve a purpose - DJs often have to play in extremely dark environments, the LED gives them a good idea of where their control parameters are at that moment.

because he isn't running a production line or making 150 amps a week in a chinese factory with wave-soldered components... by "small time" i meant his output and resources, not his abilities, which i'm sure are considerable.

not trying to spam here... but as and when you do come to bombay on the search for a tube amp, drop by. :beer:

just sayin'.

 

^ GTFO troll.

The 2nd channel on a tube amp usually has a circuit to up the gain.

Maybe flood is right about the 10" vs 12" bass difference. But on stage with a band I dunno how much sense it makes to eat into the bass territory, what with the "a frequency range for every instrument, and every instrument in it's frequency range" policy?

 

I don't have an audiologist's knowledge, but...I feel 'better bass' probably means that it reproduces the lower frequencies of a guitar better...and I don't think if a guitar can't do the same frequencies as those of a bass unless it's a 10 string or something (my ambition to play bass, rhythm and lead on a 6 string fell flat the day I realized this).

...or does stuff really 'eat into' frequencies?

Anyway...

Goes without saying!! xD

Now comes the shocker...it'll be quite a few months (maybe even a year) before I can actually buy it. Still saving for it. But that's good for research, and good for developing some technique (my touchstyle technique has miles to go) before I go get it made.

Ciao folks, thanks for all the help, do post/PM if you know about some place willing to made quality head+cab cases.

I want a strong molded plastic case, like this one here, but instead for carrying the 1x10 cab and head together. Maybe it can be two cases connected to each other, with a suitcase-like wheel system like shown in the picture, and the head case should be detachable so I can carry only the head if I want. Anything to enable me to carry it alone.

(Ideas on this - I can try converting a suitcase of a suitable size, perhaps reinforcing and padding the shit out of it.
I can even try making my own, amp cases don't seem AS hard as, say, acoustic guitar cases. Why not? Any links for helping me for this would be appreciated.)

PS Wondering if I should make a new thread for audio samples when I finally buy it. *daydream*