Scientific Facts and Christian Faith:

Discussion in 'The ChitChat Lounge' started by Priyank_Jal_fan, May 9, 2006.

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  1. Priyank_Jal_fan

    Priyank_Jal_fan ..:[Snip]:..

    One would think the unnecessary battle between science and Christianity had long ago been resolved; however, recent statements by both scientists and theologians belie that thought. For example, Richard Dawkins, an outspoken atheist biologist wrote, "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist." On the theological side, the Institute of Creation Research (ICR), a fundamentalist Christian organization, continues to publish anti-evolutionary material such as, "...the notion that a reptile gradually evolved into a mammal is scientifically unacceptable." Interestingly enough, as flawed as some of the scientific statements of ICR have been, they seem to be more informed in science than the anti-Christian scientists have been in theology.

    The causes of the science versus Christianity battle may be traced to three errors. First, the proponents on both sides often fail to define the term, "evolution." Second, both sides have failed to see science as a product of a Christian world view. And, finally, both sides confuse the realms (limits) of science and theology.
    WHAT IS EVOLUTION?
    The American Scientific Affiliation has published an excellent book, Teaching Science in a Climate of Controversy, for high school science teachers. In it they list five definitions of "evolution." Micro evolution (breeding programs which have produced hybrids and species adapting to changing environments in minor ways) obviously occurs. Macro evolution (the hypothesis that homo sapiens evolved from a single cell or even from inorganic compounds) is not obvious and much more debatable. Finally "evolution" is sometimes used as a religiously value-laden tenet of naturalistic faith that "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process..." Few, if any, would disagree that we see minor changes over time in the plant and animal kingdoms. Conversely, few would agree that homo sapiens (along with the rest of the universe) is only a product of chance or random events.

    When some biologists refer to the macro evolutionary hypothesis as a "fact," they distort the evidence and cloud the issue. There is considerable debate among biologists and paleontologists about the mechanism and possibility of macro evolution. Consequently, overstating the case for macro-evolution raises a large target for some Christian fundamentalists. This results in attacks on evolutionary biology which distracts biologists from a critical study of their own hypotheses and causes them to band together against a common enemy.

    As will be discussed later, extending scientific hypotheses into a theological (metaphysical) world view under the guise of being scientific is completely unwarranted. What ever hypotheses evolutionary biologists espouse (as long as they are limited to biology) say nothing about Who started and sustains the process. Likewise, theologians who read the Bible as a scientific text engage in faulty hermeneutics. It has been convincingly argued that a correct interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative says nothing about the scientific mechanism God used to create the universe.

    THE ORIGIN OF MODERN SCIENCE
    It surprises many to discover that modern science is basically a product of a Christian world view. The well known Cambridge historian, Herbert Butterfield in his book, The Origins of Modern Science, convincingly argues that what happened in the 16th century and following was not so much a result of new data, but of changed minds. While other cultures have given great discoveries to the human race, such as the introduction of zero from the Hindus and algebra from the Muslims, the Christian West had the unique set of assumptions required by science.

    Three main assumptions of modern science are:
    The universe (world) is orderly;

    this orderly universe can be known; and

    there is a motive to discover the order.

    The Greek and Roman cultures had none of these assumptions. The gods were fickle and unpredictable; who could know their intentions? Math and philosophy were ends in themselves and not means to discover a rational universe. The traditional Hindu culture saw the universe as cyclical, again with the gods being capricious. Who could know the mind of Kali or Shiva? There was no incentive to show that they ruled over an orderly system.

    Islam would adapt the Judeo-Christian concept of a creator God and, therefore, conceive of an orderly universe, but Allah is so transcendent that he could not be known in the Christian sense, nor could his universe. There was, then, little incentive to argue for the order of his universe.

    Classical atheism must hold to strict metaphysical naturalism in which everything occurs by chance or random events. To many, such a world view takes more 'faith" than belief in a Creator. At any rate, such a view in the 16th Century would hardly bespeak an orderly universe. If the world is illogical, how can one understand it? If all is a result of chance, what incentive would there be to discover order? Of course, we know that understanding science and technology greatly improves our quality of life, but this is insight after the fact and really borrows from the presuppositions of a Christian culture.

    Only a Christian world view seems to fit the three criteria. The created universe is logical as can be seen from numerous Biblical references such as Jeremiah 31:35, "...the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night..." This universe can be known because the Creator can be known as Paul in Romans 1:19-120 declares, "For what can be known about God is plain ...his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." Finally, the incentive exists in the direct command in Genesis where God says to "...fill the earth and subdue it..." Thus mankind is to be not only a steward but to master God's creation.

    What surprises some is that many of the founders of modern science were not only Christians, but they were scientists in order to demonstrate that we lived in an orderly universe. They believed that such a demonstration would be powerful evidence that such a universe was created by an orderly God who could be known.

    For example Copernicus (1463-1543), one of the first to question Aristotlean cosmology and the geo-centric solar system, was a devout Christian and tolerant toward the reformation. Bacon (1561-1626), another outspoken Christian, formulated the "scientific method" and brought a more quantitative approach to science.

    The conflict between the Roman Catholic Church and Galileo (1564-1642) has been used to support the anti-scientific bias of Christianity towards science, but for one who knows the history (see Hummel's book, The Galileo Connection), Galileo had many high ranking Catholics on his side, among whom was Cardinal Baronius who wrote "[The Bible teaches] how one goes to Heaven, not how the heavens go." Galileo, no paragon of tact, delighted in alienating his fellow professors, who were Aristotelians and believed in a geo-centric solar system. It was mainly they who caused the Pope to condemn Galileo's teachings, but Galileo's other Catholic supporters helped broker the final plea bargain. Unfortunately, professors have a history of irrational actions which continues to the present.

    Kepler (1571-1630) upon whose discoveries our space program rests, wanted to be a minister of the Gospel, but was persuaded to pursue his talents in math and astronomy. In his writings, he frequently quotes psalms and explicitly relates the order of his discoveries to God's rational creation.

    Pascal (1625-1662) is certainly one of the greatest minds in this line of founders. He is credited with being the father of probability theory, hydrostatics, mass transit, modern French prose, computers, and Christian Apologetics. His Pensees (notes defending the Christian faith) is a classic work.

    Newton (1642-1662) considered his theological writings more important than this scientific. Harvey (1578-1657), Boyle (1627-1691), Faraday (1791-1867), and Maxwell (1831-1879) to name a few, were all devout Christians. Boyle, the first to show the difference between compounds and elements, was a lay preacher. Faraday, the discover of electro-magnetic induction, once only read from the Bible for a sermon saying his words could add nothing to God's. Maxwell, who discovered magnetic flux, wrote:
    "Lord, it belongs not to my care
    whether I die or live
    To love and serve Thee is my share
    and that Thy guard must give."


    It is an interesting historical question as to why, science, conceived in a Christian culture by many Christians, was turned against Christianity and why Christians allowed this to happen. I give the Huxleys, starting with Thomas (1825-1895), considerable credit along with others who saw science, and especially biology, as answers to questions that had previously been attributed directly to God. Christians, instead of realizing that their own creation was being used against them, "threw the baby out with the bath water" and considered science the problem rather than the misuse of science.

    There has (and continues to be) a confusion between primary causes and secondary causes. The study of natural science deals with secondary causes while theology studies primary causes. For example, we may explain rain by saying that moisture in the air is cooled below the dew point causing water molecules to condense around dust particles thereby generating precipitation. This is a secondary cause. The primary cause is simply, "God made it rain." In other words, God, who created the physical system, is the cause behind the observable cause.
     
  2. Priyank_Jal_fan

    Priyank_Jal_fan ..:[Snip]:..

    Some people attempt to explain unknown causes in nature by God's direct intervention. This has been called, "the God of the gaps." While God could certainly intervene in the natural process (called a miracle), to make God responsible for common natural phenomena means that as each scientific discovery finds a natural explanation of what was previously attributed to God, the direct intervention of God becomes unnecessary. That is, as the gaps in knowledge become smaller, the God of these gaps becomes correspondingly smaller. People with this mentality see science as a threat to their faith. Obviously, were such a view held by the founders of modern science, there would have been no incentive to find answers to the natural phenomena. Understanding these natural phenomena as secondary causes, places God above them where increased ability to explain how they occur not only does not "decrease" God, but adds wonder to His creation.

    WHAT ARE THE REALMS OF SCIENCE AND THEOLOGY?
    Having discussed the historical rise of modern science and some of the conflicts, the present day battles can be solved by understanding the limits of both science and theology. The following table illustrates the almost complete separation of the realm of theology from that of science. They do not conflict, they complement each other.

    Notice that the only intersection of the two ALMOST disjoint sets (columns) is NATURE. So those who see theology and science as completely unconnected miss the point. Historically, this intersection of nature has lead to what is called the "Teleological Argument" That is, the order of the universe points to an orderly creator, the same point made by many of the founders of modern science. Scientists may study this mechanistic universe and be impressed by it, but in order to understand anything about the Creator, they have to go outside of the four dimensional time-space continuum which limits their studies. Theologians may study the Creator who made this order, but they are bound by His revelations (the Bible) and cannot extrapolate these to make scientific pronouncements.
    Realms of Science and Theology
    ITEM THEOLOGY SCIENCE
    Assumptions God is primary cause along with Jesus and the Bible Orderly universe, cause and effect, etc.
    Subjects God, mankind, spiritual world, absolute truth NATURE NATURE, forces, material universe
    Sources Bible, Holy Spirit Natural universe and events
    Purposes Who and metaphysical why How and immediate why
    Language Qualitative and subjective Quantitative and objective
    Method Biblical studies, experiential, experimenter involved Observation, experimenter detached
    Results Oughtness, knowing God What is
    Validation Biblical principles, personal experience Internal consistency, empirical testing
    Limitations "How" is not explained "Who" and the metaphysical "why" not explained

    The order of the universe is all the more amazing when we understand that order contains information and, according to the more general Second Law of Thermodynamics, nature destroys order (information). That is, just as water runs downhill, the energy in the universe is "running down" and, baring some intervention, the sun and all the stars will burn out and all that will be left is low level radiation.

    Robert Gange, in his book, Origins and Destiny, points out that the amount of information in the simplest bacterium is 7 million bits (not the computer bit, but information bits). Think of this number as an exponent. The question then becomes, if the information (order) in the universe is being destroyed, where did the original information come from? Moreover, the universe seems to have been designed to support life. The laws of the universe are so finely tuned to this end, that some scientists have called this order "The Anthropic Principle." For example, if the difference in expansion rate of the universe were different by the universe would either collapse or no stars could form. It seems that more theoretical physicists than biologists are impressed with this order. The book by physicist Paul Davies', The Mind of God give compelling evidence for a Creator.
     
  3. Priyank_Jal_fan

    Priyank_Jal_fan ..:[Snip]:..

    CONCLUSIONS
    Two quotations on the limits of science are instructive. Vannevar Bush, past Chairman of the Board of MIT wrote,
    "Science proves nothing absolutely. On the most vital questions, it does not even produce evidence."

    "It has become increasingly evident our century that science is uncertain in its very nature.... Indeed one thing of which scientists can be quite certain is that they will not achieve a complete solution of any worthwhile problem."
    George Gaylord Simpson,
    Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology, Harvard


    Two quotations on the limits of theology comes from an unlikely source. It was St. Augustine, who wrote in the 5th Century:
    "We must be on guard against giving interpretations of Scripture that are far-fetched or opposed to science, and so exposing the Word of God to ridicule of unbelievers."
    He also wrote:
    "The Spirit of God who spoke through them [authors of the Bible] did not choose to teach about the heavens to men, as it was of no use for salvation."

    Notice that it was scientists who understood the limitations of their field and it was a theologian who understood the limits of theology. The final word is for both scientists and theologians to understand and use the "two book" model that goes back at least to Cardinal Baronius of Galileo's time which says that the Bible reveals God's words while nature reveals God's works. In other words: The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. Science and theology are meant to be complements, not combatants. Science gives theology perspective while theology gives science meaning. It is time for a truce.
     
    Evo Guy 911 likes this.
  4. Evo Guy 911

    Evo Guy 911 Banned

    Dude i fell asleep scrolling down the page without even reading. If its not a CP job, u sure have some nerve & stamina, not to mention unlimited free time for the stuff no onez gonna need or read. Peace out

    P.S.: CP stands for Copy Paste... Hope this gets famous........ :banana:
     
  5. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    interesting article but way too lengthy
    and this evolution vs. creation debate is on for decades...but no1 has reached any solid conclusions

    btw..i believe in creation :)
     
    Evo Guy 911 likes this.
  6. Evo Guy 911

    Evo Guy 911 Banned

    I didnt read the article, but got the essence form vini's post. Well i believe in creation with valid reasons, i.e., evolution. With reference to Islamic faith, I believe the first thing God created was Reason. Everything that has happened naturally, has an explanation. Its only lack of our knowledge tht we dont see the reason. Peace out.
     
  7. Priyank_Jal_fan

    Priyank_Jal_fan ..:[Snip]:..

    @vini thanks... atleast there are some patroniser of hard work..
     
  8. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    You do?! SHIT! *deeply disappointed*
     
  9. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    yes..i do!
    one of the reasons i dont write gothic poems...hihi :grin:

    disaapointed, kaiko?
     
  10. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    ^What has that got to do anything with gothic poems? Disappointed cause i thought you werent one of the "sheep" in the "flock" "sheperded" into believing a close minding theory (YESH REFERENCES TO THE BIBLE!)
     
  11. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    @distu gothic poems are lil morbid and contemptuous!!

    anyways...in a dark cloud doth dwelleth my Shepherd
    :)
     
  12. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    ^Morbid and contemptuous they are by nature, but how does that have to do anything with either believing or not believing in creation or God?
     
  13. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    i doubt if i can make u understand..anyways ping me iL explain :)
     
  14. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    ^Oye! Are you calling me dumb? :annoyed:
     
  15. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    not dumb re..but just that its tough to explain something to an atheist :)
     
  16. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    ^I wonder why you make assumptions. I am NOT an atheist and NOT an agnostic, i firmly believe in God. I just dont understand how you're relating gothic poems to the existence or belief in the Lord.
     
  17. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    the 6 day creation concept of the christians was plagiarised from the 6 day creation fable of the jews which in turn was plagiarised by the 6 day creation mythological story of the sumerians, called the Enuma Elish. google "enuma elish" and read it for yourself.
     
  18. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    @distu
    because "christian faith/belief" and "gothic poem's orientation" are totally different and you may say ...former in a way abominates latter one

    @jam

    jews and christians have many similarities..maybe thats y people say they plagiarised :)
     
  19. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    there's still a lot you need to know about jews and christians, esp the former. might as well try knowning about the Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish while you are about it.
     
  20. vini

    vini Repeat Offender

    maybe!!..but im not much interested in Jews...know almost everything about christianity which i should be knowing..nothing else! thats about it
     
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