Mapping sa re ga ma to western notes

Discussion in 'Beginner's Q&A Forum' started by madhura, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. madhura

    madhura pani poori yum yum ....

    hi!
    mapping of western notes to sa re ga ma :

    in normal octave :
    sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa = C D E F G A B C
    and all sharps will be next note and flat will be previous one ( other guys plz correct me about flat is i am wrong) ....
    in normal octave tabs will be
    sa = C = 5 string = 3 fret
    re = D = 4 string = open
    ga = E = 4 string = 2 fret
    ma = F = 4 string = 3 fret
    pa = G = 3 string = open
    dha = A = 3 string = 2 fret
    ni = B = 2 string = open
    sa = C = 2 string = 1 fret.

    i hope this helps
     
  2. rabi_sultan

    rabi_sultan <Bulla Ki Jana>

    i'm pretty sure that sa re ga ma doesn't start with a C but instead a C#

    if anyone has the book "The Raga Guide" its in there, i'm getting my copy in a week or so but i won't be able to say anything before that.
     
  3. maverick8218

    maverick8218 New Member

    Rabi, I think it depends on the scale. The scale madhura mentioned is C major. If it was D major sa would map to C#.
     
  4. dharmatma

    dharmatma Banned

    if its a dmajor scale ..sa will be a d note..

    sa re ga ma pa..is basically the major scale...
    in a major scale the scale starts with the note the scale is in and ends with the same note..
     
  5. maverick8218

    maverick8218 New Member

    gotcha dharmatma, thnx...
     
  6. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    Sa re ga ma is neither the major scale nor does it start on C.
    They are just solfege syllables used to refer to the notes of a raga. Depending on the raga and the base pitch, the pitch of the notes (or their CDE equivalents) will change. There are LOTS of constraints that go into this. It also depends on whether you are talking about Hindustani music or Carnatic music.
    For instance, in Hindustani music, if Sa is C, in some raagas, Ma can be both F and F# at the same time, however this is not allowed in Carnatic. In addition, the raaga also defines the ascent and decent of the notes, and playing the notes in the raaga in any random order is not allowed (this is more strict in carnatic than in hindustani)

    Consider the raag Kafi from hindutani. The S R g m P D n S' of this raag correspond to C D D# F G A A# C respectively. (If the base Sa is taken as C).
    The raaga Mohanam from carnatic is a pentatonic and only has Sa Re Ga Pa Da Sa corresponding to C D E G A C. If you are interested in a more detailed conversion "algorithm" let me know, I'll try to post it.
     
  7. madhura

    madhura pani poori yum yum ....

    i know that everything is relative and mapped to context ...
    answer to the question : why i posted above mapping " is .... -> its easy for beginners to learn and start their own music .... its the same octave they teach you whenever you start learning raagas or any other indian instrument .....
    its just first step ... i agree with all other posts but its just starting point for people who are new ..... so i think we should not confuse beginners with hell lot of info about how same sound has differnt meanings in different raagas and different pitches and different things .....

    i am sorry if other people dont agree with this.
     
  8. rabi_sultan

    rabi_sultan <Bulla Ki Jana>

    thats fine if you don't want to provide new people with excess information, but you don't give them new information that is not wholly 100% correct or even that states that this is not correct but is something to get you going. They then get confused even more, better to give them the whole information and make something out of it. For instance just starting on a SINGLE raag and then work on different raag's, if they are remotely intelligent they will see the pattern.
     
  9. dharmatma

    dharmatma Banned

    i know that sa re ga ma ...are solfege sylablles..
    but it IS the major scale...
    try playin the major scale and sing along sa re ga ma..
    i was talkin in terms of western music.
     
  10. rabi_sultan

    rabi_sultan <Bulla Ki Jana>

    you can't classify sa re ga ma in terms of western music because western music has fixed musical notation where desi music has referenced musical notation.

    so no even in terms of western music you are wrong. sa re ga ma is not western music plain and simple.
     
  11. dharmatma

    dharmatma Banned

    the original poster probably wanted to map the major scale on the fret board.
    the query itself was wrong..so assumin what he wanted i tried to explain whatever little i know in terms of western music.
    i dont know anythin abt indian classical and ragas and carnatic music.
    yes i know
    isnt sa re ga ma...also do re me fa so la ....
    isnt it the same??
    cos do re me fa..is the solfege of the major scale.depends on what key 'do'
    is in the other notes in solfege will vary.
     
  12. rabi_sultan

    rabi_sultan <Bulla Ki Jana>

    sa ra ge ma are referenced meaning that in one scale/raag ra could be D but in another scale/raag could be D# but in both it will still be called ra and not D/D#

    thats the difference right there. sure you can map it out on the fretboard but then that mapping can only be for a single scale/raag and it will change as the key/pitch changes.

    To further complicate matters in raags you have different ascending notes than descending notes.
     
  13. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    sorry i deleted my post which was tangetinal and was discussing microtones in indian music.
    the user basically gave mapping of basic hindustani sa re ga ma in C
     
  14. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    Sa re ga ma is NOT the major scale, please don't propogate misinformation.

    Solfege syllables doesn't just mean Do re mi fa of major scale. The soflege includes all the 12 notes of the octave and has a syllable for each. check out this link for more info:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege

    With Indian music, things get a little confusing, cos even though there are 12 notes (will come to 16 later) there are only 7 syllables to refer to them, namely sa re ga ma pa dha and ni. Depending on the raag you are talking about, the actual note represented by the syllable changes. Infact, if you dissect each syllable you will get this:
    Sa stands for "shadjamam" and is the root note. For any scale, there is only one variation of Sa.
    Re stands for "rhishabham", and there are THREE types of rhishabam. They are "Suddha rhishabham", "Chathusrithi rishabham" and "Shadsruti rishabham", but all are referred to as "re". Modern notations prefer to use R1, R2 and R3 respectively for them.
    Similarly there are three types of "ga" or "gandharam", 2 ma, 3 da and 3 ni (totalling 16).
    In carnatic music in general, a particular raaga can have only one type of re, one type of ga etc. (hindustani raags can have two res or two gas etc).
    In Indian music, people never go talking abt sa re ga ma withotu specifyign what raag they are talking about - so there is no confusion if you understand the schemes.

    Consider these two raagas:
    Maayamalavagowla: Sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa
    where re is suddha rishabham, ga is "anthara gandharam", ma is "suddha madhyamam" and so on. This can be likened to the scale C C# E F G G# B C if C is the root.
    Shankaraabharanam: Sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa
    where re is CHATHUSRUTI rishabham. This can be likened to the scale C D E F G A B C (major scale)

    So the same syllables have different meanings in the above two scales. Clearly, Sa re ga ma is not just the major scale.

    Indian music is an extremely highly evolved sytem of music both melodically and rhythmically. Its a pity that people trivialise Indian music without trying to understand its depth. On the contrary we must try to evoke peoples interest and curiosity, and share the beauty of Indian music. Personally I am just a newbee standing on the outskirts of this huge ocean, and I can see a whole new exciting world to explore. I only hope that others will join me.
     
  15. madhura

    madhura pani poori yum yum ....

    i never said its scale or something ... i just said in normal octave ......
    ( what is equivalent to middle octave (madhya saptak) on harmonium ..... starting point to learn indian instruments or first sa re ga ma you learn in ur school) ......
     
  16. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    dude, the original post was probably for folks who dont know what the hell cdefgabc is.
    what u say is all fine man... may whats needed for this discussion is just this

    Code:
    [FONT=Courier New]C C# D  Eb E  F  F# G Ab A  Bb B  C  C# D  Eb E  F  F# G Ab A  Bb B  C
    s r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
      s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
         s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
            s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
               s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                  s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                     s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                        s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                           s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s  
                              s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                                 s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                                    s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s
                                       s  r1 r2 g1 g2 m1 m2 p d1 d2 n1 n2 s[/FONT]
    
     
  17. madhura

    madhura pani poori yum yum ....

    thanks *jayswami* ...that was in my mind.

    i have question for *ananth*:
    as far as i know ( i have formal training for indian classical music) there are only two re's or ga's etc... in classical music ( komal re, sudha re , komal ga sudha ga, ma, tiva ma) etc .... which is consistent with what jayswami says ..... r1 r2 etc .....

    now you are talking about R1 R2 R3 ( do you mean these res in different scale? ..i dont want more confusions with relative scales .... so could you please draw pic. of any instrument ( prefer: harmonium) and point out where these 3 res are???

    i am guessing is you ment 3 res (one for each in mandra madhya and taar saptak : 3 octaves) .....
    please clarify.

    PS: i am not arguing with you, so please take it lightly.
     
  18. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    If i may answer that,

    there are only 12 seminotes, (or 22 if u following some carnatic purists.. but thats beyond the scope of this discussion)

    certain raagas may have 2 gas or 2 nis..

    for eg there is this one raaga named nattai.. (lagaan's baar baar haan, mahaganapatim etc)

    the avaroganam of that raaga will have
    S R3 G3 M1 P (D3) N3 S
    ava: S N3 P M1 G3 M 3R S




    C Eb E

    now u cant have 2 ga's in the scale.. so they name the smaller ga (g2) ri3 in such cases.

    so tonally, r2=g1 r3=g2 etc

    check this out
    http://carnaticcorner.com/articles/mukund_chart.htm


    thats my understanding, its just the nomenclature that makes it 16. but there r only 12 shrutis.

    if u r interested in the 22 shrutis in carnatic music, then read
    http://carnaticcorner.com/articles/sruthis.html

    these r real 22 shrutis, for eg the rishabam in gowla is 10 cents lower then C#
    etc. carnatic musicians who master all 22 shrutis are the great ones.

    Jay

    Jay
     
  19. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    Thanx for the answer jay
    madhura, I am not criticizing you. what you posted is correct, if you just mention for instance that its the raaga shankharabharanam. Anyway, that is a minor issue.
    I was only responding to dharmatma who kept insisting that sa re ga ma is the major scale.
     
  20. esgallindeion

    esgallindeion Minstrel Knight

    @ ananth or anyone else who knows...
    a little query -
    is R3 = G1 ?

    The way I learnt hindustani music, my teacher used to call them "komal Rishabham", "Shudh Rishabham"... but there was no other form of "re"... similarly "Ga" had "komal Gandharvam" and "Shudh Gandharam"... and "ma" had "shudh Madhyamam" and "Teevra Madhyamam"... so logically, if there were a "Teevra Rishabham" it would be the same note in that octave as "Komal Gandhar". Am I correct in this assumption?
     

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