Human beings Living or Non-Living?

Discussion in 'The ChitChat Lounge' started by notty_lad, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. shak

    shak Harrr!

    tht is exactly what me and shs are discussing, can science or religion answer 'all' the questions without help from one another?
    from athiestic point of view, you can always put it to 'the chance', and from religious point of view, there is always God ..
    i am trying to strike a balance somewhere but shs is keeping me on my toes .. pretty enjoyable debate if you ask me.
     
  2. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions,
    a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a
    personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it
    clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is
    the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our
    science can reveal it."

    -Albert Einstein.

    I hate quoting "great people" in general because the "great man" feeling sometimes overrules other people's thinking but yeah..
     
  3. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    But why i dont like the whole "perfect design", "fine tuning arguement", etc is that:

    1) (numbering=academic gayness, but youre doing it so yeah) If were fine tuned because were so complex and the universe is "orderly" throught its existance for us to exist, then how much more orderly and complex would our god have to be?

    How did that exist? youe might to say that it just existed, but it would be a lot more economical (See: occam's razor for "chance" (which i think is gay anyway, (2) i'll explain why if you ask ) than for some superior intelligence, because to create that superior intelligence youll need superior intelligence deluxe edition on steroids.

    3) Secondly, the uncertainty principle thing: Can religion predict a velocity and the position of the particle better? Saying that science is "bound" doesnt mean that faith in a god isnt. And if it relies on humans, then what doesnt? Everything does. Even belief in god does. (and especially if you agree with the design arguement)

    4) Its better IMO, to believe something that aknowledges its own limits than something that claims to know everything.
     
  4. shak

    shak Harrr!

    1) enough to make this universe maybe .. or more than that .. all we can do is guess ... there is no definitive answer to this ..

    and how does he exists, who was before him or who made him ... well if someone made the 'god' then 'god' wont be the 'god' anymore .. the thing that made the 'god' would be the 'God' ... common sense.

    (go along ^ .. and climb the infinite spiral hihi)

    3) no religion cannot do that, for a million years!! .. religion/faith gives you what science doesnt, i.e spirituality, ethics, morals, how to live and respect etc.

    when we say science is 'bound' that means science 'cannot' (explicitly) give an answer to everything there is to know . .it is bound by our own knowledge and hence i agree with your 'everything relies on humans'

    4) thatss your opinion :) .......................... total respect!!!
     
  5. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    No. Philosphy would give us that, wouldn't it?





    Religion, I've noticed, tends to instil a fear of sorts by giving us a consequence directly related to deviations from "the path". Almost everyone fears the unknown.


    [bible thumper]Do this or God will punish you[/bible thumper]
     
  6. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    Philosophy, i've noticed, has an inherent human bias instilled in it, which is understandable, cause it was put together by humans. Someday we should realize that the end-product maybe wasnt an invasive human species, but something better? Religion, science and philosophy converge and offer us an image of ourselves that is narcissistic and ultimately detrimental. Or wait, i should say our interpretations of the above, not them by themselves.
     
  7. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    No, you didnt get my point. Which was that if we the complex, blah blah beings were fine tuned (which is the fine tuning arguement which assumes that things which are orderly and complex (cars, humans, harry potter) are designed by a higher being), then shouldnt god, who should orders of magnitude more complex and orderly to create and fine tune the universe have an even higher creator
    So youre saying that the fine tuning arguement applies to everything except god. Why cant it be everything except carbon based life on earth? Thats more economical isnt it? (read occam's razor)

    Firstly you said in an earlier post that you believe in the Quran because of some scientific predictions it makes.

    Ignoring that: where do i find truth in there?
    Appreciating and contemplating human life, nature, etc is spiritual enough imo. No need for god.

    Morals? Sorry, but morality itself originated far before any religion did (or atleast i think thats VERY probable) . Religion itself, imo hijacks many of the morals that were pre existant and claims itself to be the origin for many things.

    And many stonings, killings (adulterers) are prescribed in religious texts. (but then, i dont want to generalize too much)

    And also, if morals derive from religion, why was racism ok in the 19th century and a no no (by most "good" people) nowadays?

    A little (americanized) statistic: less than 1% of all american prisoners are atheists when somewhere in between 4-12% of their population are (admitted to being) atheist.

    The whole "god is with me" feeling can result in many crimes.


    Edit: read my signature.
    Science and religion rely on us. Read: Anthropic principle
    And whats your point anyway? You said initially said that science is inept. What does that supposed to show/prove?
    Whats yours?

    Would you believe a supreme know it all or a guy who admits making mistakes and seeks to rectify them in a logical manner?

    edit: And i really recommend that you read up the multiverse theories. They made a lot of sense to me and cleared many questions
     
  8. shak

    shak Harrr!

    no. philosophy would give us that .. or, yes but the philosophy can also give us that?

    meh ... that only spells an end of a rational argument.

    as for the holly book thumping, yes, religion does instill a fear of unknown .. and dunno how many evils this fear has put an end to ..
    it is very easy to go cherry picking mate.
     
  9. shak

    shak Harrr!

    @shs & all:

    its just turning into a skinless religion bashing now .. im out.

    we werent here to talk about how important religion is for me .. or how correct you stand when you deny God and believe religion is a hate breeder.

    or perhaps im just a chicken ..

    chose the best answer.
     
  10. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    Quite honestly, I think the whole argument has been moving in circles and will continue to do so. People have tried to talk about it earlier and I don't think the discussions have been nearly as civil as this one has.


    I think you're putting words in people's mouths though when you talk about shs and "all" believing religion is a hate breeder.
     
  11. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    And how is this religion bashing?
    The initial question was is there any superior intelligence in the creation of life. (and you said that "religious view was far more simple"). i disputed that with arguements of how the existence of god is improbable.

    edit: "pretty enjoyable" to skinless bashing in 8 posts? I guess its the religion and morality thing that offended/whatevered you?

    And i dont deny god, i believe that there is a higher probability of god not existing than god existing. And yes i believe that religion can result in hatred, but thats clearly not the only result. (and yes you did put words in my mouth....until now)

    You might have thought that i came across as too aggressive in my tone? Just imagine a story telling tone when reading this. (i'm not joking)

    @bjr: I dont think that this is going around in circles. We havent gotten to the multiverse bit yet, and THATs when it goes in circles.

    And discussion can be tired work.
     
  12. shak

    shak Harrr!

    So youre saying that the fine tuning arguement applies to everything except god. Why cant it be everything except carbon based life on earth? Thats more economical isnt it? (read occam's razor)

    ..firstly, the idea of creator being a creation itself is slightly confusing .. but alright lets have that from your point of view, for God to exist and to be fine tuned, shouldnt there be a higher being? .. what would you call that higher being? God2? .. if this God2 can fine tune God .. then shouldnt God2 also have a higher being again? .. God3? .. and so on
    ^ this doesnt take me anywhere .. and hence sounds absolutely absurd. unless i failed to understand what you were trying to say ..again.

    my quesiton, why God needs to be fine tuned? if he can fine tune, why should he needs that 'fine tuning' as well in the first place?



    it does, and i dont believe in the book because of that, it just validates the book to some extent.

    *head against the wall*

    yes morals!, how many of us turn to aztecs or minians for morals and ethics and how many of us turn to the 10 commandments?

    morals might have existed before religion (if you can date the origin of religion that is, and religion is not chirstianity or islam only, religion has a far wider meaning and i believe it has existed since humans felt a need for morals and ethics .. but that what i believe) but its religion that compiled, protected and preserved them .. the ethics and morals that you carry will find their roots to some religion/school of thought some where down the line.

    as for racism, i can just speak for islam not for neo-christian, klans or pagan beliefs that may have spun-off mainstream religion sometime in the past, and you are more than welcomed to qoute how islam or christianity or budhism promote racism, its the interpretation of religion that causes such evils not religion itself.

    stonings and killings are prescribed in some religious texts but a punishment is a punishment, if that hints barbarism then so much the better, might just as well prevent some crimes at the roots .. and we still have capital punishment in so called 'decent' nations .. so there you go, if someone raped a woman i cared about, i would love to see him getting stoned to death than serving probation and 3 months in jail.

    the americanized view about athiest and religious guys in prisons? .. so you saying religion promotes crime?


    .... HOW?

    /bashing


    i believe what i feel is correct.
     
  13. shak

    shak Harrr!

    i will read the multiverse theory when i get time .. my schedule is getting really hectic and i am actually sacrificing baftas to reply to you post .. :p
     
  14. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    Thanks for the sacrifices.
     
  15. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    You understood my point but misunderstood my opinion on it. It IS Abusrd
    Because thats what the fine tuning arguement is about. It simply assumes that anything that is apparentely looks designed IS designed by a higher being. Applying that to god should make sense, shouldnt it?

    Youve got a being which can fine tune and create a universe (if not many) with exactly the constants that admit carbon based life, shouldnt a being of that complexity, elegance, order, etc (god) be designed?

    This is exactly one (1) of the reasons why i believe that the fine tuning arguement is crap.




    The truth is irrelevant i suppose?



    I think you need to look up for evolutionary ethics and memes.

    This is where religion is a moral crutch. No truth value.
    Its not my point that religion promotes racism but that religion and morality are independant of each other. One is constant (assuming that you only believe in one religion all your life) and the other is relative.

    Do you approve of the good man moses?
    read my signature. (Or for a more elaborate version, here

    Lust= Adultery of the heart


    On religious tolerance and discussion, Dueteronomy 13:6-10:

    "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
    Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
    Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
    But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
    And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."

    Very moral arent they? Anyway, my point is that in both the old and new testament, there are verses which we'll say are good and some that are bad (and when i say "we", i mean a human in the 21st century). The criteria from which we differentiate good and bad is available to all of us, whether we believe in god (especially the god of Yahweh) so the whole morality issue falls flat imo.

    No, i say that religion can make people justify their crimes. The whole "god knows that i'm right" and "god is with me" feeling is destructive imo. But i dont want to draw too many conclusions from that, because i cant draw too many. It was a rebuttal against you saying that religion is somehow better to enforce morals?


    Whatever you do, i know....... i know from my heart that god is with me and will be with me forever....




    Which is that an intelligent creator ....*falls asleep, three times in a row*
     
  16. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    ^I didnt realize that it was that long.
     
  17. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    ^Memes as in spiral dynamics?
     
  18. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    Memes as in richard dawkins. Here
     
  19. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

  20. shsnawada

    shsnawada Cyborgs & Pasta

    ah, didnt know that. thanks for telling
     

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