How to identify scales !!

Discussion in 'Hindi Guitar Tabs - Submit or Request' started by yuvrajkailash, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. yuvrajkailash

    yuvrajkailash New Member

    Hi guys, I just wanna know how u people prepare tabs...I mean do u just randomly play on any scale and identify the tabs or how is it ??? I just wanna know the way in which u identify the scales and the exact position on the fretboard...If this known everyone can become a better guitarist !!!...so pls help
     
  2. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    Every song hsa a key note about which it is based. You can try playing different notes on your fretboard and see which resonates with the song. Once you identify the key note, it is the major scale or minor scale of that note on which the song is based. You can know that by playing both the major and minor and select the one that resonates well with the song
     
  3. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    This is not fully true man, the whole point when trying to figure out a song is "how to determine the tonic" (the key note)! Because firstly you will recognize the notes of the song and then the problem will occure, which scale is this? Is this a major scale or the minor scale? To solve this problem you will have to determine the tonic!!!!!
    So for example, you are figuring out a song and you identified these notes, C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Because you don't know what the tonic is, it could be the C major scale or the relative minor of this scale, the A-minor scale. So how you will decide this is the major scale or the minor scale. In my opnion this is one of the biggest problems for alot of musicians, because as far as i know, there are no rules or definitions to solve this problem.
    Although, there are some people who believe that sad songs are minor scales and happy songs major scales. In my opinion this is just a fairy tale. I think its just a matter of listening, while playing the song (you are figuring out) along with the chords you think it should be, there comes a day and you will get the feeling whether this is a major scale or a minor scale!

    Read the thread below to know how embarrassing it can be when you fail to recognize the scale!

    http://www.indianguitartabs.com/showthread.php?t=31457
     
  4. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    By the way, the example i mentioned, C-D-E-F-G-A-B, is an example for a very simple song, cause there are very less songs played in one scale, i mean, containing just the notes of one particularly scale. Most songs contains more notes than the above mentioned notes, for example, C-D-E-F-G-A-A#(Bb)-B. So if you are figuring out a song with these notes, it could be, the C major scale, the F major scale, A minor scale or the D minor scale.
    Sometimes you even will be faced with songs with just a few notes, not all the notes used of a certain scale!
    Or even just the notes of the C major scale, C-D-E-F-G-A-B, but nevertheless the scale of the song is F major! Confused?? Such a song is for example, Hoton Se Chulo Tum by Jagjit Singh! The notes of F major are: F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E. The Bb note doesn't exist in this song, the B note isn't from this scale but it is played!
     
  5. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    ok i dont know how you decide but you seem to be trying really hard for a fairly simple thing.....you are saying first we figure out all the notes and then we have to see which scale it is but actually once you know the key note ( letc say it is C) then the scale will be C Major or C minor and not Am (which is realtive to C). I usually try this way and am correct about 95% ( 5% songs are exceptions).
     
  6. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    And as far as the post is concerned about the guy who got embarrassed because of mix up, well i cant say anything coz he says he played the song in Em while it was supposed to be in G. since both are relative scales, its strange how he could play the song in only one of those?? Beats me..
     
  7. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    But this is the biggest clue, how will you know what the tonic is?? The keynote isn't written on top of the Cd- or Dvd-box, you have to figure this out by yourself!
    The example given is about when someone is trying to figure out a song he never played and he also don't have any information about in what scale the song is,etc.....!
    And believe it or not, this is one of the biggest problems for all those people who want to figure out no matter what song. But as i already mentioned, there comes a day and you will hear the difference between a major scale song and a minor scale song, i mean when you will play the song along with the chords !!! The chords you will know when you know what the scale is, in my example, C-major or A-minor.
    Maybe there are people who can hear the difference while its playing, unfortunately i can't, i have to play it first by myself to recognize and discover the notes involved in that particularly song.
     
  8. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    ok tell me something pal......u must have tuned a guitar atleast a zilllion times, how do u do it (without using a tuner). You check whether each string is resonating with the previous one right. It is equaly easy to find the key note....just check which note resonates with the song,,,,as for beginners who cant tune a guitar that way, well they cant figure out chords just yet
     
  9. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    First of all, i'm not a guitarist, i am a keyboard player.
    I also think a guitarist must be able to tune there guitar without using a tuner, cause i heard some guitarist playing the guitar and they even didn't noticed the guitar wasn't tuned well. I guess, some of them even can't hear the guitar isn't sounding well!

    Back to the topic, you are the first person i hear who claims to be able to hear the tonic of a song, even easily to find the key note. If you are telling the truth, i then congratulate you with your extremely good sense of hearing and i really mean it!
    To talk for myself, i can't hear it, although i can say about myself that my ears are very good, i mean when talking about the Sur, the pitch, i am not exaggerating about myself, its just a fact!
    I personally think its impossible to hear the tonic just as you are claiming to do, just because the fact, in a song there are more chords involved. So there where, for example a C major chord is played, the C will be resonating, is the next chord the G major, the G will be resonating etc....., i even think the other notes of the chords (the 2nd, the major third called and the 3rd, the perfect fifth called) will be resonating aswell, especially when one of those notes is being played at that moment! So in my opinion this is a very dangerous way to find the tonic!
    I am not offending you man, its just my opinion about how you claim to find the tonic, so please don't understand me wrong!
     
  10. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    no offence taken pal. If this was a method i created, i wud certainly doubt it but before telling u from where i learnt this, tell me something. You must have watched Antakshari and other music shows on TV, have u noticed how the band there are able to give chords to any random song u choose to sing and that to instantaneously??
    Just think how cumbersome it would have been if they first had to ask the contestant which song they would sing and then tab the song, then check the notes to match the scale and then to find the right chords.....tiring isnt it?
    They use the same method i described only that they are a umpteen times better than me. Unlike me they dont have to play each key note to see which resonates with the song, they just tell the key note by listening the song.
    Now coming back to the point of how i learnt this method. I was fortunate enough to learn guitar from a Srilankan guitar God who is currently pursuing his phd. in Indian classical from BHU. Just like you I couldnt believe when he could not only tell the tonic by listening the song, he could even tell the key note of the scale a person is singing in!!! Incredible isnt? I guess you have to see it to believe it
     
  11. numbfingers

    numbfingers New Member

    Also some opinions of virtuosos like Bandbaaja and others would be really helpful here.....
     
  12. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    Can't say much about the TV shows you are talking about, just because i never watched them, i live in the Netherlands so we are not able to watch those shows.

    Although there are some ways to discover the tonic, they are not mine, i read them on the internet, some time ago. One of them is, the last note of the Mukhda is the key note, another way, the last note of the song is the key note. Actually i never tried these "rules", so i don't know if they are good or not. But i can't imagine this can be true for all songs, so it can't be a rule, at least not in my opinion. Just as i already mentioned in my previous reply, i don't think there is a rule for this issue, for me its just a matter of listening, i mean listening whether the song is a major scale or a minor scale.
     
  13. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    There is one simple explanation - familiarity.

    When you hear a note - you can easily hum it.
    But you may take ages to find that note on fretboard, thats because your brain recognizes how to hit that note using your vocal chords (its been using it since your birth), but the brain is still not familiar with how to produce correct notes using fingers (on fretboard).

    All it takes is practice and time.

    Once you are proficient, you will see that you are able to play correct note just by listening once.

    How do you become proficient? By practicing scales, chords, arpeggios, scales built around chord structure etc. Basically you are building finger memory and linking it to the notes that you hear (or want to produce).

    Playing chords just by hearing becomes a natural extension of this.
     
  14. yuvrajkailash

    yuvrajkailash New Member

    thank you guys..
     
  15. milesfastguy

    milesfastguy New Member

    keoraf u r complicating simple things. i totally agree wid numbfingers. its not a big deal to find the tonic of a song if u hav any instrument. 3 things-
    1. if a song starts with say the C major chord then the tonic wil be either of the notes that make up a C major chord. ie C, E, G.
    2. if a song starts on a note say C then the scale does not necessarily have to be C major or minor. songs can start wid notes that r not even part of the scale.
     
  16. milesfastguy

    milesfastguy New Member

    3. keoraf u quoted the song honton se chulo tum. its an example of wat ye call a key-centered song. ie songs dat use more than 1 scale. such songs r very common in india. n also the peculiar major minor combos. ie say A major and A minor existing simultaneously in a song. finally i wud say dat its pretty easy to find out tonic of a song with any instrument by humming it. some ppl can do dat widout an instrument.such ppl r said to be ear trained
     
  17. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    These points aren't explaining anything, they are just creating doubts about what key note could be the right one.
    Your 1st point for example isn't true, the first chord just doesn't prove anything. You would be right by saying, the first chord is sometimes the root chord, in this case you will know the tonic. But it doesn't work for all the songs where this isn't true!
    Point is 2 is just a fact, so no comments about that!
    Point 3, why i used this example, just to prove how complicated this issue is. By the way, the notes given for this song are just the notes played for the melody. The solo's between the meoldy lines contains even more notes that doesn't exist in the F-major scale, the Ab and the C#, these are all the notes in this song, F-G-Ab-A-B-C-C#-D-E!
     
  18. milesfastguy

    milesfastguy New Member

    keoraf,
    actually this discussion has been so long dat im losing track. can u kindly tel me wat is it u exactly wanna know?? u can put it in questions n i'll try my best to help. ask as many questions as u like.....cheers!
     
  19. Keoraf

    Keoraf Keyboard Player

    All i wanted to say is, this isn't that simple as some people is trying to say, this issue is more complicated as you are thinking, at least for the beginners. That's why i supplied the example that proved an experienced guy( at least, thats what he pretended to be) can easily be wrong! And i'm sure he isn't the first one who went wrong.
     
  20. milesfastguy

    milesfastguy New Member

    keoraf,, do u hav any question which u want anwered. or r u just stating these as facts?
     

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