How do you direct your band's sound???

Discussion in 'Guitar Gear Talk Forum' started by angel_of_sin, Aug 11, 2009.

  1. angel_of_sin

    angel_of_sin bassist.....

    ohk guys.....this question has been troubling me for over a year now.......what i want to know from you guys is how you use your bands resources and how efficient is your plan...........practice and performance both to be answered separately please........
     
  2. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    Very very inefficient. It's usually the case with most garage bands though. I guess there needs to be a constant goal. (upcoming gig or album)
     
  3. angel_of_sin

    angel_of_sin bassist.....

    ohk!!!!....here's the deal.....My band's got 1 Stranger 100Watt , 2 stranger 20watts, 1 Marshall 15cd, 1 stranger 30watt.......i line out the stranger20 to marshall coz i simply don't like the marshall sound with my procs........my bassist uses the 30watt and my guitarist uses the 20 watt for rhythm....my vocalist uses the 100 watt to be heard over the drummer..........now i was wondering that if i got a mixer would i be able to line it out to all the amps??????This for practice purposes and for performance line the amps out to PA's?????

    So can we do this :-

    Practice :- Instruments> Mixer> Amps
    Performance :- Instruments > Mixer > Amps >PA's....

    And is it feaseable coz most of Pa's in india tend to be 'Ahuja's'............
     
  4. wylder

    wylder New Member

    I too was considering this option, but the problem is limitations on the mixer... Most small mixers have only a main out and a monitor out.. Thats 2 diff outs. For practices, you need to hear yourself clearly. Hearing through a mix isnt as great as being able to move nearer to your amp to check if your certain difficult parts are sounding right.
     
  5. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    a) Bassist using a 30W guitar amp? I doubt you can hear him.
    b) The vocalist, as mentioned before needs a mic preamp.
    c) Instrument -> mixer -> Amp does not work. A mixer has mic level inputs. Some may have line level but most importantly they are low Z. You can't plug your high Z guitar into the mixer and expect any good sound.
    d) It's not a good idea to connect a mixer to multiple loads.

    I can hear my 30W amp over my drummer at a volume of about 5. I don't see why you want a mixer for anyone other than the vocalist (for the mic pre).

    In live performances you will use instrument -> mixer -> PA.

    Instrument -> amp's line out -> mixer -> PA will only work well for you if the speaker doesn't automatically switch off and you want to use your amp as a monitor, or you really like the sound of your preamp. Also, the mixer must have a line level input or you better be prepared for distortion that'll melt your face off.

    Instrument -> amp -> mic -> mixer -> PA is what you would use if you really love your amp tone.

    Note that instrument includes any pedals you may have.

    Now if you want to give the sound man a nice low Z source to work with then you would invest in a DI box. Putting it just before the mixer will ensure that whatever the route you use, the mixer receives a nice mic level balanced signal that the sound man can manage.

    You do understand that the mixer does what it says. Mixes all the input into one ouput line. So why would you go mixer -> amps? You want all your bandmates to hear the same mix? Most of the time they prefer their own monitor mix, for which you need a mixer which has at least 2 pre-fade aux sends per channel.
     
  6. angel_of_sin

    angel_of_sin bassist.....

    no we can't hear our bassist.....he is not that good anyways just plays the basic stuf....thinking about throwing him out........any bassist u know of in Delhi???

    yeah i never thought of that problem before......every instrumentalists need to get his parts right and for that they should have a separate amps.......i dun really like the Marshall tone so i guess i wont need to Pre amp it......but what about the other problem.......most PA's in India are Ahuja's...............
     
  7. wylder

    wylder New Member

    Dude, it wont be feasible to use onstage mixers cos wat you hear onstage is not wat it sounds like on the PA. Things like volume leveling n stuff need to be done on the run. Moreover, decently mic'ing a drumkit usually takes like 5-8 channels with condenser mics requiring Phantom power n stuff. U need a board with at least 12 channels.
    So its not practical to invest in your own mixer. At the end of it all, its going to go into the Ahuja power amp. so not worth the money you shell out.. If the PA equipment is so bad, and the venue is not too large, you can opt to play through your practice setup. Or ask the organizers to hire a good sound system.
    For vocals, you can either get a cheap Behringer mic-preamp or try getting a tiny mixer with 1-2 mic preamp channels (cost ~4k).
     
  8. ultrabot90

    ultrabot90 Like fishes need bicycles

    @thehundredtheone
    Woah, that was a tough post to comprehend...but it's correct and useful xD
    ...and wont that DI box, right before the mixer, need a lot of inputs? Like, loads.

    This has only 2 inputs (I believe XLR is the guitar lead size? Then make that 1...). So does that mean...that every instrument (and does that include every mic the drummer needs -shudder-) needs a DI box, all leading to the mixer, and eventually the sound guy?

    Another question...what if we just need to run a vocal mic at practice? Will Mic -> DI box -> guitar amp line-in work out fine?

    @Wylder
    Agreed, we don't need this unless we're really doing a lot of big venues (audis, colleges, stadiums)...That's why I'd really avoid doing anything but clubs and stuff till our band gets to a pro level (and gets pro gear!). But isn't a passable vocals mic always provided for in all performance places?
     
  9. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    Cliffnotes for my previous post are:
    a) Bassist needs bass amp
    b) Mic needs mic pre-amp
    c) Instrument into mixer direct is a bad idea
    d) Amp (if used) comes before mixer. Why re-amplify the mix?
    e) Ideally get a low source (output of your instrument) impedance right after your amp/pedal so that you can then use a large length of cable between yourself and the mixer without losing out tone. Usually achieved using a DI box. And since the level is now mic level, sound man will also be able to handle the input better.
    f) Mixer mixes. Multiple input, 1 output (the basic function). Mixer -> PA.

    No I don't know any bassists in Delhi.

    XLR is the mic jack. It has 3 pins. Your 1/4" jack is a a mono instrument/phono jack. The Behringer DI has effectively 1 input and 1 output, which can be either XLR or 1/4".

    DI takes 1 high impedance non mic level unbalanced input and gives 1 low impedance balanced mic level XLR (or sometimes phono) output. Guess what signal mics output. So how many DI boxes is that again?

    Read the cliffnotes. What signal do mics output? What signal needs to be converted to mic level? What signal does a DI box output? What happens when you plug DI box output levels to line level input? I think you can now answer this one yourself.
     
  10. distorted

    distorted satan

    Thanx a lot man... This ws rly helpful in undstanding a few things...
     
  11. ultrabot90

    ultrabot90 Like fishes need bicycles

    @thehundredthone - I'm not surprised if you're being rhetoric. Explaining that is a tough job xD

    One for each non-miced instrument, I'd guess...you basically mean to say that mic-level needs no DI box. And a mic needs a *sighyetmoregearIneedtobuy* mic preamp (and then it can easily run into, say, an amp line in?)

    How's this for a newb band?
     
  12. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    I also mentioned on the other thread that mic level output is not enough for the line level input. Line level has a level of +4dBu, whereas a mic has levels of around -60 to -70dBu.

    Mic levels will run into mic in. A little obvious, no?

    That pre-amp seems decent. Dunno how the tube will colour the tone. Look for reviews.
     
  13. wylder

    wylder New Member

    Dude, anything that can act as a preamp should do. I wasnt talking about a "high-end mic pre", which would cost atleast 50k. The behringer one shud give u enuf volume to be usable for practice through a 20W amp.
    We have the same problem cos we use my low impedance SM-57 connected to a powered Stranger monitor for practices and the volume is very low. But for gigs, I mic my amp using the same mic going into the mixer and its plenty loud. Its called impedance mismatch n can b solved by using either a preamp on a mixer or a standalone one and then connecting its output to the amp.
     
  14. ultrabot90

    ultrabot90 Like fishes need bicycles

    @thehundredthone-
    So...(hopes he hasn't got it wrong again)
    Mic -> mic preamp -> whatever speaker/amp will work. And angel_of_sin's solution is a mic preamp.

    Right? o.o

    Can't wait to try this out, if I did get it right. The turds in my band always cause impedance problems in the hookups, and this time I'll be able to help xD
     
  15. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    From the specs: Maximum output level: Approx. +26 dBu

    I think it should do fine running into any amplifier's line in. I say line in because I don't think you want a (non Stranger/Kustom IIRC) guitar amplifier's mid-cut eq on your vocals.
     
  16. thehundredthone

    thehundredthone New Member

    Oh and yeah the reviews say that the thing gets pretty heated up sometimes. Also the limiter isn't very intuitive so if you decide to max out the gain with output low (rather than less gain and more output) you'll be compressing the sound a lot.
     
  17. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    Ultrabot, which mic preamp are you thinking of?
     
  18. ultrabot90

    ultrabot90 Like fishes need bicycles

    @alpha1 - Behringer MIC100...Or something close in the price range. I only know so much about preamps (and studio recording gear in general) though.
     
  19. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    Tube preamp.
    *Bah*
     
  20. wylder

    wylder New Member

    I thot the "tube" in the MIC100 was non functional.. I read some reviews which said that they use orange LEDs placed behind the 12AX7 to make it "glow". It must be a real neat unit if they actually manage to run the tubes hot.
     

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