exerpt about an incident, from my own travel dairy.

Discussion in 'The ChitChat Lounge' started by jamhead, Mar 23, 2005.

  1. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    When I had nearly finished seeing the Se Cthedral to my satisfaction, and was on the staircase just outside the front door, I spotted our tourist bus, which was a distinct flourescent orange in colour, start moving out of the parking lot slowly. So I ran as fast as I possibly could and crossed (ie. jumped) the gates (which were kept locked) on the backside of the compound, and reached the bus, just in time. Only to learn that it wasn't leaving after all and was just sort of adjusting its position in the crowded make-shift parking lot! There were about five more minutes or so, to go before it was due to leave, so I got out again, and photographed the Se cathedral from the distance. This one turned out to be a fantastic shot, with a tree curving in, just a little above the broken tower, thus also outlining the shape of the church beautifully.

    Then our bus started for a remote part of goa, outside of the urban areas of panaji, margao and such like. As I had written earlier, goa is a very old place, with its past lost in antiquity. So we were headed now to have a look at two famous temples, both hundreds of years old. First was the Mangeswari temple, which is where the Guinnes world record setting, much acclaimed Indian playback singer Lata Mangeskar hails from. Something untoward occured at this temple for which I am still cross with myself. Not for what I did, but for what I didnt do. Just moments after entering the temple compound, and only after taking one or two pictures from the front, I decided to take a walk around the temple. I saw a foreigner dressed in shorts, with enough tatooes to cover me, you and both our mothers in law, trying to get his camera to work. What he did was, place the camera on a wall opposite the side-face of the temple, and then rush to the stair case that led to the sidewise entrance of the temple. The camera was evidenty rigged up for auto click, and seconds before the picture got taken, our guy raised his right hand in a distinct Hitler salute. I knew it the monent I saw it, and sure as hell, when I looked above his head, at the temple, I saw a bold swastika, painted on the wall above the side door. The swastika, if you know, is a holy symbol of the Hindus, but had unfortunately been used in the past, by a maniac, by the name of Hitler, as a symbol of his ethnically and racially prejudiced designs. In India, its still a holy symbol, as it has been, since god alone knows when, but in the rest of the world its now understandably associated with the aforementioned heinious movement. It was the presence of the swastika that prompted that fcukwitted neo nazi to raise his right arm in the unmistakable "heil hitler" pose.

    I was still sort of under shock, from what I had seen and inferred (by putting two and two together, after spotting the swastika on the temple) when he saw me staring at him, and offered a "Hello", as if nothing strange had just taken place. I recovered, didnt reply to his hello and asked him straight away, "why did you do that hitler salute?". And then guess what, the guy avoided my gaze, took his camera, and got the hell out of there as soon as he could, realising that his deed hadn't gone unnoticed. And thats why I am cross with myself. I let him go. The problem is that, few Indians have a clue, about whats a hitler salute, and the others that saw it, saw nothing wrong. It being a Sunday, the watchmen and security at the temple were also not present (I tried to report it to them). So realising that couldnt do much singlehandedly, I just followed the bas-tard, and stole 2 pictures of him on the sly, using my cam mobile. I have already send the pictures to the Anti Defamation League (A.D.L.), and will soon be sending it to the tourism ministry of India. They should run a check about the backgrounds of every foreigner that they allow into India and debar people with neo-nazi connections. Else, for all we know, some of the next crop of visitors to India, may include the likes of Andreas Strassmier (the german national and commited neo-nazi, who stayed in Elohim City in midwestern USA, and brainwashed the mind of a certain Timothy McVeigh, to get him to carry out the Oklahoma city bombing) and surviving members of Screwdriver (ian stuart donaldson is already dead), the doyen of white power music. If that dont work, I plan to alert the news papers and maybe even the embassies. In any event this has to stop. Foreigners come to india as visitors, and should behave as such - 99% of them do. If the other 1% want to wear their racial stock on their sleeves, they can do so in germany or england or where ever the hell they hail from, and leave India well alone, else face the concequences.

  2. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    huh i see so many dudes saying jai shri ram. doesnt mean all of them r responsible for babri masjid demolition..
    being a member of KKK or believing in Neo Nazi ideology doesnt make you a criminal..

    only if u comMIT illegal acts based on those ideologies u become one..

    for all we knwo that poor bloke was probably surprised to see a nazi symbol (from his point of view) in goa.. and just did that for fun... and got **** scared when u objected..
  3. death_metal_fan

    death_metal_fan oh goody, it's a woody!

    lol...this is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while.

    Just because I occasionally wear a Mayhem T-shirt or make the devil' horns (salute to Satan) sign with my fingers all the time, does not make me a Satanist or make me want to burn churches.

    As jayswami said, he probably did it for fun and even if he didn't, what's the problem? As long as he doesn't take his beliefs too far and commit acts of violence based on those beliefs, I could care less.
  4. Subhro

    Subhro Argentina lost :"(

    chill jamhead... tht guy cud be doin this jus 4 fun..

    still gota admire ur effort..
    wondr how mny wud hav takn the pain 2 do sumthin if in ur place..
  5. harini

    harini Hameer Kalyani

    Theres a difference between someone who doesnt know the difference and makes a mistake, and someone who knowingly errs. the foreigner was probably just ignorant, and you scared the **** out of him which is why he ran. Hinduism is probably one of the most gentlest religions. We have seen many invasions...Moghul, British, and till today we have RedCross trying to convert many. I wouldnt say being passive is right, but being overly aggressive isnt right either. Instead of reporting one guy, why dont you start up an informative sight to the swastika, and do something productive out of it? Till today, many indians believe there was an aryan invasion- a theory by a german (Max Muller), to pull hinduism closer to germany. The theory honestly is bogues....read myth of the aryan invasion by David Frawley. Sad part is, a white person had to defend hinduism, while most indians are content having a fair shot at the fact that their ancestors could have been white. Educate the mass, dont indimidate them!
  6. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    what kind of an essay is this? If you found that guys action objectionable y did u have to yarn about photos of cathedrals and orange buses? couldn't u just mention exactly the point you wanna discuss? the was your essay progresses itself fails to draw any seriousness in your final allegations. If you feel strongly about a matter then don't talk irrelevent details when u discuss that matter.
  7. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    harini david frawley is a psycho he aint no white man anymore.. he goes by the name Swami Bogus Nanda or something.. he is that HareRama hareKrishna iskon types..... But his myth of aryan invasion is a very very interesting read.. but it is biased.. and the saffron brigade almost ran a crusade to re write history books.. that said and done.. i can belive the theory that max mueller proposed the aryan invasion theory as a justification to..
    hey look.. the aryans did it, the mughals did it.. time after time u guys have been invaded.. so what we westerners r doing is no different..

    anyways.. i am very neutral on this subject.. i do know that both sides have vested inerests and biases and are equally bad in here.. and yea david frawley is a total psycho.
  8. death_metal_fan

    death_metal_fan oh goody, it's a woody!

    Let's not bring current world politics into this or we're going to end up with another closed thread on our hands.
  9. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    the kind of essay this is, is called a diary, or more specifically in this case, a travelogue.

    i yarned not just about cathedrals but all the tourist spots in the order i saw them. the bit you read about the Se cathedral took place just before our orange bus deposited us near the mangeswari temple.

    i could ofcourse mention exactly the point i wanna discuss - something like "i spotted a neo nazi in goa, period." but thought i'd be better if i presented it from my dairy, exactly the way i had written.

    my essay progressed with the sole intention of comming up with a diary that'd remind me of the trip. they werent irrevalent details at all.

    as for the seriousness of my final allegations (actually assertions, not mere allegations), as someone who has been in touch with the ADL for quite some time now, and quite wary of the likes of max hammer and his propaganda to get school children into racist music (the latest massacre in a MN school, should convince you of the sort of horror brewing up), as someone who has tracked the claims and publications of the C18 (if you dont know what that is, feel free to ask) in their website, and as someone who knows the real story behind incidents such as the oklahoma city bombing, i really neednt be told about the sort of designs and intensions that the neo nazis have. i know exactly how serious they are, and was equally serious myself, else wouldnt have gone to the lengths i have to nail that guy and future such guys.

    ok, now comming on to what others had to say....

    it so happens that the hitler salute is banned in europe. you can test that yourself - stand on the london bridge, under the eiffel tower, near the mermaid in copenhagen or where ever you feel like and do it. if a cop spots you in the act you've had it. when bands like screwdriver perform in pubs, the police usually track them and the thin line which the "doctor martin boots and skinhead-ed" spectators arnt allowed to cross, is the hitler salute. they can voice or display their appreaciation of songs like "nigger i hate your face" and "adolf hitler" and "skinhead girl" in any way they like, barring the trademark "hail hitler" salute. if they do THAT, then they get nabbed and the concert has to wind up, cos then its been proved unmistakably r-a-c-i-s-t. the bands themselves have accepted the occurance of such incidents in ther websites, when some over zealous fan could not hold himself back and cos of him their concert had to wind up.

    if europe has banned the scum called neo-nazis, the why should india tolerate them? read the last line of the exerpt. i sadi that they could do it whereever the hell they want, i couldnt care less, as long as they left india well alone.

    @death metal fan, .. its one thing to get into hocus-pocus like "devil worshipping" and another to be racist to the extent of believng in "ethnic clensing", as nazis do. where as the first one falls in the realm of religious mythology and belief, racism and the holocaust are every bit REAL. the jews were indeed fried in ovens, all cos they werent of a certain ethnicity.

    @harini..........if our guy had made a mistake and done his salute just for the fun of it or for kicks, then he would not have specifically chosen the backdrop of a swastika. nor would he have quietly vanished from the spot. he didnt get scared, cos i said nothing intimidating. he got "Caught" though. which is why he could not answer me back. if he had done it for fun, he would have said as much in reply to my question. but he hadnt any answer, except ofcourse accepting the all too obvious.

    as for passive and aggresive, i am not trying to be the latter one bit. i just want to nip it in the bud, before this trend assumes alarming proportions and we get flooded with foreign tourists who come to india to get a taste of ther fatherland/ ideological homeland. not that we havent allready had our share of psychopaths - savitri devi is the queen mother of all racists and spend a third of her life in india, "discovering her aryan roots". she supported the holocaust openly too!! its sad that the indian government didnt kick that fcukpot out. er... the aryan invasion theory and the reasons that myth was constructed by mad Max, thats a totally different issue, and was done for very different reasons, not just keeping the interests of germany in mind. i'll refrain form commenting on that in ths thread. this one is about the menace thats brewing.
  10. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    first you take sides with the progenitors of the aryan invasion myth and then claim to be neutral with the subject !!

    subsequently you declare yourself a westerner, whilst holding on to your rather cute and all too western name of Jayaswami !! if ever i bumped into someone who is neither fish, nor foal, and whats more probably doesnt even realise it himself, then its you.

    as for both sides having a vested interest in the subject, india trying to straighten out her history which was turned on its head by mad max (so that his belief in the judeo-christian 6 day creation concept wouldn't fall apart) and by the poms, (so that they could justify their presence in india), is not what you call "vested interest". for a clearer idea of what real vested interests are all about, read the following exerpt from a book by a belgian indologist by the name of Koenraad Elst -

    "About the use of the AIT in the service of colonialism, there can be no doubt. Thus, during the 1935 Parliament debates on the Government of India Act, Sir Winston Churchill opposed any policy tending towards decolonization on the following ground: “We have as much right to be in India as anyone there, except perhaps for the Depressed Classes [= the Scheduled Castes and Tribes], who are the native stock.”3 SO, the British Aryans had as much right to Aryavarta as their Vedic fellow-Aryans."

  11. dharmatma

    dharmatma Banned

    im just very surprised at myself for just reading the original post..
    i think it was probably just plain ignorance..abt that guys part...

    yeah..and abt rascism..it is present everywhere..
    even indians are heavy rascit ppl..
    i kinda look asian coz my moms tibetan....and u see most of those guys on the roads..just teasin u for the way u look..the regular noises they make..and makin those chowmow..sounds..hahahha..
    i remember one incident where one auto wala was makin faces at me ...thinkin that i wouldnt do anythin..i just raised my middle finger..and that guy got stunned...hahahah..and i could see his jaw drop to the floor..

    hmm..now i think its not rascim...ppl are just curious..coz u look diff..
    anyway..peace out..
  12. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    while i was about halfway into your post i had a good mind to point out that you could have been the recipient of the same taunts if say, you had 3 eyes or 2 noses. then i saw at the end that you reached the same conclusion yourself, that you were at the wrong end of those auto walas and other guys, only cos you look different.

    so why confuse THAT with whats racism ?

    as for ignorance about that guys part, if you were there in place of me, and saw the whole thing, how he planted his camera and posed in front of the swastika with the hitler salute and more importantly how he completely shut up and slipped out of there when i pointed out what he did, you'd have known immediately that it wasnt ignorance at all, but every bit intentional. and its only cos i saw through that "intent" of his, and said as much to him on his face, that he buggered off from there. thats whats called a "guilty concience".

    if he had done it in zest or out of ignorance, and not in a deliberate effort to show his allegience to a most dangerous belief system (ie. nazism), then he would have had the balls to answer me back.
  13. dharmatma

    dharmatma Banned

    ^^^ i get ur point..and why u confronted him...
    hmm...i dont know if i would have the balls to do that..

    abt my post ...i was just kiddin abt the rascim part..
    dont take it too seriously ..all in jest my friend.
  14. harini

    harini Hameer Kalyani

    @Jamhead- the reason i pointed out the aryan invasion theory, is because we hindus are more than willing to let other people rule over us. it is in our blood to be passive. That is one of the beauties of hinduism. However, we should use this as our strength, and not let other people use it as our weakness. i think you udnerstand what i mean. I agree with you that it is very disappointing to see the swastika used in such a way. Indians must do something about the general notion about hinduism, not just corner one man.

    @Jay- Frawley may be psycho. I may be psycho. Evidence cannot be psycho. The theory of the aryan invasion challenges many facts, such as the existance of the saraswati river, charriots, so on so forth. Modern day discoveries have proved Max Muller wrong. The reason this was pulled by him was because Germans were not in a very good shape at that point of time(late 1940s) and they needed something to prove themselves superior. What better a religion could they have picked. Max Muller picked a simple theme..such as devas fighting asuras. Devas were light complexioned, heavenly, and asuras were dark, and assumed that it must have been a depiction of the aryan invasion. Aryans fighting Dravidians that is. Muller described the Mahabharata as a petty fight among princes, and our indian people gladly believe everything, just with the hope tht they might have some white blood in them.

    Wake up Jay! You're not white, and no white guy will ever think you're white either!
  15. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    i am right glad that at least (and last) someone got my point and the drift of what i always was trying to point out -

    that some types of evil (ie. extreme racism, like nazism) are best nipped in the bud before they assume alarming proportions.

    i still havent managed to forgive myself for letting him off the hook and not taking him to task. had it not been a sunday and had the temple authorties and security men been around, i would have got them to seize his camera and indict him. a similar act in the western hemisphere (there are indeed a handful of hindu temples in europe and usa, in pockets like manchester and silicon valley, which have a considerable ammount of indians) would have landed him in jail in no time.

    as for your post, if you were just kidding, then its all cool. i'll take it with a pinch of salt...........
  16. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    i do understand what you are trying to say. and the main reason that myths like AIT could get propounded, is that, indians have no sense of history and thus are very good candidates for others to attempt to script the history of our people (of course keeping their intersts in view!!). add to that goebbles famous axiom that a fake story when circulated long enough and often enough, soon gets accepted as the true story, and you will begin to see a lot of light. i quote again from Koenraad Elst's book, in fact the very frst lines off it -

    "Until the mid-19th century, no Indian had ever heard of the notion that his ancestors could be Aryan invaders from Central Asia who had destroyed the native civilization and enslaved the native population. Neither had South-Indians ever dreamt that they were the rightful owners of the whole subcontinent, dispossessed by the Aryan invaders who had chased them from North India, turning it into Aryavarta, the land of the Aryans. Nor had the low-caste people heard that they were the original inhabitants of India, subdued by the Aryans and forced into the prisonhouse of caste which the conquerors imposed upon them as an early form of Apartheid. All these ideas had to be imported by European scholars and missionaries, who thought through the implications of the Aryan Invasion Theory (AM, the theory that the Indo-European (IE) language family had spread out from a given homeland, probably in Eastern Europe, and found a place in Western and Southern Europe and in India as cultural luggage of horse-borne invaders who subjugated the natives."
  17. harini

    harini Hameer Kalyani

    you know what jamhead...as long as there are people like jay around...things will not change. Elst is probably mad too according to Jay. Its just sad that hindus themselves are ignorant of their own religion. Going to temple isnt hinduism. Ours is a vedic religion, havan etc is what is most important. Ofcourse when people dont even believe that hinduism is truly indian, theyr obviously not going to understand the essence of the relion.
  18. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    ITS good that the "something in the middle and something in between" ( another way to say "neither fish nor foal" ) types like the one we have here, are still pretty much in the minority... so i am still hopeful that someday soon the AIT will be consigned to flames (the way galielio was vindicated and the "sun goes round the earth" school of belief was buried very deep) and mad max will get the due discredit he deserves for cooking up the history of a fifth of humanity, just so it would serve his own interests and further strengthen his cherished belief, that all things nice and beautiful, originate from somewhere between the black sea and the rhine valley. :RollLol:
  19. silent_dragon

    silent_dragon Immortal guitarist

    oh my god jam,i must admit ur sincerety to write such long posts!!!!woah keep it up:beer:
  20. jamhead

    jamhead Unknown Legend

    oh my god dragon, i must admit that if you've noted little else in my posts other than their size, then i have nothng more to say!!!waoh keep it up :beer:

Share This Page