#1 - Learn To Count

Discussion in 'Guitar Lessons, Tutorials & Tips' started by Bandbaaja, Jan 19, 2005.

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  1. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

    I must really push you guys to learn to count first,
    Not as in counting money but counting BARS and MEASURES

    Please ask any musician friend of yours to explain TIMINGS like 2/4 , 4/4 , 3/4 , 6/8. etc, and try to understand what is a BAR and to understand BAR COUNTING.

    This has to be physically explained i feel, the books cannot explain this in a very effective way.

    This becomes very important, and once u know to count, u will not require chord charts with lyrics asking u to change at a particular syllable in a word.

    If you need chords for Papa Kehte Hain
    you will not need

    .....Papa keh te hain ba da naam ka re ga

    u will only require chord charts that go
    Papa Kehte Hain:
    Key: C
    Time 2/4

    Sign: [/ C / Am / F / G /] - (2)
    Cross: / C / C / Am / Am / F / F / G / G7 /

    This becomes very important, so that u understand that a musician has nothing to do with lyrics, he plays bar to bar.
  2. rizaaj

    rizaaj Forum Leader

    nice... but cant i learn it online .. . i mean from the internet... or by books.. sounds stupid bcoz u ve already mentioned...

    but can you give some tutorial on counting... will be really helpful...
  3. d_ist_urb_ed

    d_ist_urb_ed Genuflect b*tches!

    Nice thread bandbaaja, will be better in the Guitar tips, tutorials and lessons forum. Thread moved.
  4. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

    oh ok, i thought its a beginner's thing, and not for advanced dudes
    sorry again, i seem to be really goofing up in placing my threads out here :shock:
  5. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

    riyaaz, will have to find a way
    will try to do something, maybe explain it by way of a song, which i feel is a nice way....
    gimme some time to think....
  6. madhura

    madhura pani poori yum yum ....

    most of the osngs i know ( meaning i can play) are 4/4 or 3/4 ..... do u have an example of 6/8 .... not on top of my head right now .... :think:
  7. Subhro

    Subhro Argentina lost :"(

    i wud like 2 highlight one line or rather one word of urs..
    subhro ... Jay... help..

    R U OUT OF UR MIND ???????????? :shock: :shock:

    in case u dont seem2 know.. let me giv u a valuable piece of info...
    I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS U GUYZ (u & Jay & some other pros) ... he he.. and thats not modesty dude.. thats a fact :)

    i'm crazy abt guitar but my knowledge abt guitar is vry close to 0.. no lessons 4m ny1 or nythin whatsoevr..
    i can somewhat figure out the notes of a song & the solo in it.. (and that 2 i mastrd aftr a lot of practice coz i had no basic knowldge of music evr b4) i just try 2 link the chords somehow but they r not prfct.. nevr evr figured out a 7th, 9th 13th etc in a song myself.. :eek::

    just this othr day i was readin some tutorials how 2 figure out the major chord frm a major scale.. 1-3-5.. :eek::

    nywayz.. that was offtopic...

    i wud like 2 echo what riyazz said..
    if its possible in nyway 2 represent the stuff u just mentioned.. kindly do it.. i know its not easy.. still..
    thnx a lot in advnce...
    & also thnx 4 that line of urs.. 'subhro...Jay...help' :p: vry flatterin indeed.. :)
  8. mathai

    mathai Mathai Learns To Rock

    the song Lajjavathiye is in 6/8
    if u r a northie,im sorry u wouldnt have heard this one
  9. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    To get you started, the "time signature" represents two numbers x/y which can be deciphered like this: The upper number (x) represents the number of beats in one bar. The lower number tells you how many beats constitute one wholenote duration. Thus 4/4 means there are four notes per bar (count 1 (loudly) 2 3 4 1(loudly) 2 3 4) and 4 such beats form one wholenote (i.e. each beat is 1/4th the duration of a whole note). The duration of a whole note is decided by the tempo at which you play.
    Disclaimer: Based on my limited knowledge, hope this is correct.
  10. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    thats a horrible horrible song aaargh i hate it
    i am playing it on feb 26th anyways i am :eek:fftopic:
  11. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    i never understood all the differences between 3/4 and 6/8 4/4 and 2/4

    i think i kinda know.. i just go with the feel when i play.. baandbaaja do u know i dont count.. in fact i have big arguments with some percussionists who will count till 48 and a half before starting a song etc..
    i agree one should know the various meeters.. i kinda know them intuitively i guess..
    like someone told me that allah tero naam has a complex taal.. (forgot name in hinustani)
    it goes like 123-1234 i guess that would make it 7/4... but i have never counted anything while playing that song before...
    so i am wrong guy for rhythm.. it is very ironic..
    i spend a lot of time thinking and reading abotu melody and harmony.. dont spend half the time analyzing and reading about rhythms.. maybe i should start doing that.
  12. ananth222

    ananth222 Beginner

    I recently attended a rhythm workshop held by a tabla player. He gave some really nice insights into rhythm.
    He stressed the point that we must forget about counting and have a feel for the time. He insisted that you must think of rhythm without thinking of numbers, cos numebrs tie you down. He gave some simple excercises to think of feel for rhythm without getting caught inthe numbers - heres one:
    Count the following: 1 2 3 4 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 4 3 2 1 2 ... and so on
    and CLAP after every four beats, starting on 1. So you go 1(clap) 2 3 4 4(clap) 3 2 1 2(clap) 3 4 4 3(clap) and so on. Remember to do this without looking at the numbers.. just count in your head and clap. This will help you keep a four beat cycle without thinking about the numbers. This can be extended to 5,6, 7 or any beat cycle.
    Of course u need to know the time signature of a song before you start playing it, but once you are into it the rhythm must go by feel rather than counting.
  13. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    thats what i do... also if u r the counting kind.. if someone else screws up.. u will find it impossible to adjust... such people end up as the "reset" kinds.. the musicians ultimate nightmare.. have u seen those vocalists who screw up.. then restart from the begining of the cylce in the middle of the cycle.. i wonder what they think man.. really..
    i think they just reset their counter to 0 and start counting again :p:
  14. jayswami

    jayswami Blue J

    speaking of counting kidns.. there is this girl who sings here .. she has carnatic background.. she has this wierd way of singing.. she keeps wigling and slaps her ass real hard repeatedly for the count.. its hilarious
  15. mathai

    mathai Mathai Learns To Rock

    i had the same question in my mind...i think 6/8 is faster than 3/4(techinically
    i know the diff.)somebody can come up with a better explanation i guess....

    and jay,about lajjavathiye,it was the national anthem of kerala for the last

  16. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

    lots of things to reply to.
    Well Jay, that 1231234 is 7/8.

    In simple words
    4/4 means 4 quarter notes in one bar
    3/4 means 3 quarter notes in one bar
    6/8 means 6 eighth notes in one bar
    7/8 means 7 eighth notes in one bar

    now why i said i cant explain it on paper, is because u need to understand this quarter note / eighth note thing etc. the idea was not to teach you to READ COUNTING, but to get you to count BARS. to get a basic feel of the song.

    Some songs as examples


    or popularly called WALTZ

    Jeena Yahaan Marna Yahaan
    Main Shayar To Nahi
    Kuch Na Kaho (1942..)
    Tumse Milke (Parinda)


    Basic simple rhythm, where you count / 1 2 3 4 / 1 2 3 4 / .....

    (slow) Jab Koi Baat Bigad Jaaye
    (slow) Yeh Shaam Mastani
    (slow) Sama Hai Suhana
    (slow) Dhoom Macha De
    (fast) Ek Hasina Thhi (Karz)
    (fast) Koi Kahe Kehta Rahe


    -now this beat is generally associated to the marching sound that goes
    bom-bap bom-bap bom-bap bom-bap

    Also termed as indian rock 'n roll

    Example songs like
    Mera Naam Chin Chin Chhoo
    Ina Mina Dika
    Khambe Jaisi Khadi Hai
    Hai Apna Dil To Awara
    Main Hoon Jhumroo


    This in Hindi Songs is all the GOA kind of songs created by R. D> Burman and Bappi Lahiri, Of course Shanker Jaikishan and the older dudes also used this beat very often

    Bach Ke Rehna Re Baba (Pukaar)
    Jahan Teri Yeh Nazar Hai (Kaalia)
    Bombay Se Aaaya Mera Dost (Aap ke Khatir)
    old - Ramayya Vasta Vaiiyya
    old - Dil Ka Haal Sune Dilwala
    old - Govinda Aala Re
    Mach Gaya Shor


    The basic BLUES rhythm structure

    Pukarta Chala Hoom Mai
    Inteha Ho Gayi
    Ik Ladki Bheeghi Bhaagi Si
    Nasha Yeh Pyar Ka Nasha Hai (Mann - aamir khan)


    the 7/8 beat in indian classical and in western differs in style.
    Indian classical counts 1231234
    Westerners count 1234123
    Because of which the beat FEEL changes drastically

    Indian songs:
    Tere Mere Milan Ki Yeh Raina
    Teri Bindiya Re
    Megha Chhaye Aadhi Raat (the song parts are in 7/8 and music is 4/4)


    The most complicated among the ones mentioned here
    count 12123
    Very few songs in Hindi use the 5/8 pattern

    Aansoo Bhare Hain - Old Mukesh Song
    Allah Tero Naam

    Aankhon Mein Kya
    - From Khamoshi with Salman Khan)
    - Jatin Lalit have made Kumar Sanu sing a very tough song indeed
    The song is in 5/8 and the music in one part changes to WALTZ
    Listen to it!!!!!


    Apart from this there are extremely complicated time measures
    If you listen to the private album DIL PADOSI HAI
    by Asha Bhosle, RD BURMAN, and GULZAR
    there is a song called Jhhootthe Tere Nain
    13.5/8 :shock:

    I bet on 25 ATTEMPTS!!!!!

  17. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

  18. Bandbaaja

    Bandbaaja Pronounced Band Baaaa Ja

    but for a beginner, to try to make this thing appear crystal clear takes some time. And you need SOUND and PICTURE along with text to explain this - I THINK.
  19. tejas

    tejas ..........

    @mathai - 6/8 is faster than 3/4. 6/8 is 6 eighth notes per measure. While 3/4 is 3 quarter notes per measure. Its like....in 6/4 u play two notes in the time, u play one note in 3/4. So, its faster. It is confusing i know, but thats the best i can explain.
  20. mathai

    mathai Mathai Learns To Rock

    @tejas thanks man ,but still when i hear one song in 6/8 i go like this :think:

    @bandbaaja thanks for those song examples man....

    and songs in 12/8 and 13.5/8 :shock: :nw:

    when will i learn all these :eek::
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