¡¡¡ Absolutely Shocking !!!

Discussion in 'The ChitChat Lounge' started by alpha1, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    You've got to hand it to him. He struggles to get into the grave he's so thoughtfully dug for himself and no matter how hard you try to keep him out, he does not give up without a fight.



    There are reservations in the public sector for SC/ST and they are not by merit. I have no problems with SC/ST reservations in the education really.
     
  2. notty_lad

    notty_lad sudo undress

    *remembers the old saying that one should ignore barking dogs n jz watches*



    Well .. by educational reservation I meant Reservation for SC/ST not based on merit .. Oh its so hard to talk to people who are not concordist towards u ..
     
  3. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening

    Good going...at this rate you might hit puberty by the time Beethoven rolls over.

    I am talking about the same reservation that you are talking about. Oh, it's so hard to talk to retards.
     
  4. notty_lad

    notty_lad sudo undress

    Yeah .. I'm a kid .. but don't u think U should act mature(as I assume u are considering the quote) n put a period to this goosey argument right here .. or u want it to eventually lead to the thread getting closed or somethin like that when v really have a good topic in hand.. n plus never are such arguments fruitful ..

    I'l start by settin an example i.e.by not commenting on this ..
     
  5. aysh

    aysh -|h3 ori9in4| (ui!aris-|-

    what the fu.ck .. how can u celebrate ..
     
  6. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    :RollLol:
    KID! You dont know anything then.
    Reserved Cat have got diff cut-offs in all the exams.
    Besides, you as a general cat professor dont have any power to fail the student, coz if (s)he takes it as a sign of discrimination, you are gone. There are absurd rules/laws regarding discrimination against reserved cats.

    You also dont know that the reservation is not there only in educational institutes but also public sector / govt enterprises (like hospitals) / ministries + administration.

    It is these public sector companies that make a difference to Indian Economy.
    It is these Govt Hospitals that make difference to the health on that nation.
    It is these administrative services/ministries that affect the progress on the nation.


    However, strictly speaking, reservation is still the only feasible means to uplift them.
     
  7. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    Precisely....which is why I feel that educational reservations are not entirely faulty in the sense that it at least gives you a chance to level the play field. The problem with reservations at lower levels are that the government schools are hardly the type which prepare you for the future and you might be educated till the same standard but there will (in all probability) be a disparity between a small-town government school student and a DPS student(No innuendos intended).


    The biggest problem with the reservations is the protection it gives the SC/ST. It goes to a point where they know they cannot be touched....which is ironic since that is how the problem started in the first place.
     
  8. Ankur_Scorpio

    Ankur_Scorpio New Member

    Yeah the probability of a DPS student caught making videos is quite high...compared to a Govt school student, and tht's about the only place where the difference is. I will explain, Delhi (since u mentioned DPS), follows CBSE. The books, course material, Practical as well as theory exams r same till standard 12. Air-Conditioned classes and the classes with one fan hardly make any difference in the quality of the student produced. Most of the india's greatest leaders, presidents, scientists....were govt school educated. So if a student is willing, a govt school will give u all that u need minus the burden of high tuition costs and expensive show offs.

    Coming back to the topic. Reservations r important, but they should be representative of the region. India does population surveys every 10 years and those surverys can be used to judge the region. A place with high percentage of SC/STs would require reservation but it might not be so important in other places. Having said that, this distinction would be tough to make in metros where the population doesnt follow a pattern.
     
  9. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    So we are talking about leaders here?
    No, we are talking about general public that lives a life of drudgery.
    The common man, who actually is not as motivated as those "leaders".

    A common man coming from better educational institute on an average earns more, has a better job, is financially more secure.
    Talk about general public instead of single individuals.

    We are talking about a national planning issue here, which affects masses.
    We are not talking about Dhirubhai Ambanis.

    Infact we shouldn't be concerned about such ppl, coz such ppl never ever actually require reservations.
     
  10. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening

    Because of the predictability of the reply after I mentioned DPS, I had mentioned :




    alpha1 pretty much takes away his words right from my mouth.


    I'm not sure if you've lived in India so I'll try and explain what I meant to you...it's honestly difficult to understand unless you've been here or know about the situation under which the majority of SC/ST students get their education.


    Government school are not uniform with their policies. They are not uniform in terms of quality of teachers, course material, discipline, punishments, cooperativeness, accountability etc. There are places where the school is just a banyan tree and there is one teacher for the entire village since the school building is condemned or could not weather natural disasters. There are places where teachers have not gotten their salaries for 23 years and have fought court cases and still gotten caught in red tape. There are schools where teenage girls as old as 16 years old are stripped naked and paraded through schools as punishment. There are schools where children go into coma after being beaten up by teachers. There are schools where children are failed because the teacher does not like the questioning attitude of the student.

    Government schools in big cities are a fraction of the sum total of govt schools across the nation and even there, the basic concept for most people is that private schools are usually better than government schools in terms of facilities, exposure, quality of teachers, accountability etc. Even so, I clearly mentioned that I was not talking about a Govt school in Delhi being compared to DPS. I was comparing a govt school in Malda to a DPS.

    Like alpha says, great men are above such petty issues such as proper schooling but you and I are not.





    My take on students studying in small town government schools is similar as nazbjid(or whatever his name was)'s take was on 16 year olds understanding democracy. Hurray, our argument has come a full circle :)
     
  11. notty_lad

    notty_lad sudo undress

    U mean to say The solution is itself the root of a new(bigger) problem isn't it ..

    Yeah .. its really ironic .. So what shud be the solution acc to u .. if u can sum it up ?
     
  12. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    ^ No solutions required.

    Life has many such great Ironies.
    The only thing required is balance to be maintained.
    If the balance is not there, situation compells corrective actions.

    Since that is not the case right now, we can't really comment.
     
    notty_lad likes this.
  13. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    Not a bigger problem if it quotas were restricted to education only. My solution would be to restrict quotas to education only.


    The irony that I was talking about was that earlier, the belief that they were untouchables gave them their inferiority complex and dragged them to the state they're in and now the concept of them being "untouchable" (Untouchable used in a different way...as in indispensable because of reasons other than excellence) is what is giving them the edge.
     
    notty_lad likes this.
  14. notty_lad

    notty_lad sudo undress

    True enuff ..

    @bjr .. I Understood the Irony what u were talkin bout man .. I jz wanted u to summarize .. Which u did effectively I guess .. that restrict quotas to education only ..

    PS- I never cared of all these things n didn't know whats the whole fuss .. Discussion was helpful .. thanx fellas .. alpha n Blow Job Rules .. :) .. (now This is not "nottyesque" smiley or whatever ok .. its sincere :))
     
  15. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    Ok :)
    So lets get back to politician bashing!
     
  16. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening

    a civil discussion???


    iiiAbsolutely Shocking!!!
     
  17. alpha1

    alpha1 I BLUES!

    Yesssir!
    As civil as it could get.
     
  18. kaiser

    kaiser Bored

    @bjr: i think u're just enjoying being the devils advocate by supporting reservations, even if it is ONLY in the education field. and this field in itself is huge. reservation does more bad than good. we've got plenty of substandard personnel right from all india radio to state bank of india....and its because of this lame attempt at lifting backward peoples economically.

    as u've mentioned already, it only reinforces casteism.
    it will encourage more discrimination.
    cateism is easily the worst curse this country's ever got.

    btw, backward people arent so backward after all these days. they can afford decent education n make a living without any support. now whether this is because of reservation or not, IMO we can scrap reservations now.... not only will abolishing reservations relegate casteism to history (i know it is not going to disappear in a flash....but gradually) it'll allow pure, fair competition.
     
  19. bjr

    bjr Lady of the Evening


    I totally agree with your point that it reinforces casteism. However, the thing with discrimination is that it is inherent within the nature of man. Think about it....if it's not caste, it's regionalism. If it's not regionalism, it's racism. If it's not racism, it's discrimination due to religion. You can't really kill discrimination even though you might kill casteism so to try and kill it with that purpose in mind isn't really going to work out well since I feel Casteism is just the softest target for discrimination at this point within the Hindu community and I'm pretty sure they'll come up with something else if casteism is wiped out. To try and stamp it out with a moral issue in mind would be worth it though and I support your thoughts.

    The process you speak off will no doubt work out well but we also have to look at a time frame which I fear shall be lengthy with your idea. My logic was that we introduce these reservations for a period of say about 10 years(or longer or shorter) after which we slowly start easing them off....permanent reservations were never my idea. My bad for having left that out of my argument before you raised this issue.


    Also, I was trying to reach a compromise between current trends and future ones. If I were looking for an ideallistic solution, I'd tell people to stop holding onto bias, ask the government to provide a decent educational infrastructure and make secondary education compulsory and then rest easy but since this does not happen, I think reservations in colleges might not be completely uncalled for (though we might spare our topmost institutions which will once again be a touchy issue).


    As for SC/ST people having progressed, I agree once again but the thing is that SC/ST are a rural population as a majority(I'm not sure of my facts here but I think its true?) and discrimination is far too rampant for them to be doing well in general.
     
  20. kaiser

    kaiser Bored

    @bjr: hmmm....but i have a diff opinion...

    about the discrimination thing, it sure is human nature and THAT cannot be avoided ever (reminds me of Crash), but making reservations in institutions for people of a 'backward' class is a different thing. thats a mass scale discrimination...its a decision that can, and is affecting scores of talented and more deserving ppl by deprving them of opportunity at the cost of uplifting the so called backwards. those institutions (whether school, college or company) were made by people of skill, talent, vision etc etc...
    its terrible for those guys too.

    imagine inducting hopeless people into YOUR own company that u built with passion n hard work just because the govt says that they should be given a chance...would you like it? would they do good to your company? can you work with them? maybe. but most definitely they wont be a patch on those guys who've the skill. you would root for them(meritorious) wont you? or wud you say, hell, i need to give this obc guy a job cuz ill be helping him n his community?

    of course, it may seem that im making a baseless assumption that backward class people = untalented people, but practically, thats what it is. and i dont mean, a backward who is meritorious, of course. no offense to any 'sc st obc' guy here.... (in fact, any sc st obc guy here should be offended that he's being labeled that way. goddam, how vicious pity and charity are...! and its amazing how people who are not from sc st obc group try to get converted to that group just to avail of opportunities.....now thats another problem) and ofcourse you could argue 'thats what reservations are for dummy!' .......but reservation is simply a form of charity, and charity has no long term positive effects. they should be made to fight for their survival, even if it takes a little time.

    i agree, that education isnt compulsory as of now, yet, decent education is definetely happening. ill take my city, jaipur for eg. There's a myriad of schools and colleges coming up these days and all are doing good business. theres no reservation there, there's a mixed crowd, n fair competition. these places maybe no xaviers and doon type A class stuff but its good old plain education.

    im sure this is happening in other cities as well.

    this is one reason i said that india is on a roll in my previous posts. if we rack our brains hard, we can definitely come up with an alternative to reservations. hell, why doesnt the govt promote private schools, give entrepreneurs incentives to for startups, spread education that way instead of reserving seats in institutions? isnt this what capitalism is about?

    oh, i forgot it all boils down to politics and vote bank.

    btw, since we're on the topic of reservation, i'd like to mention that backward people are not so backward anymore IMO. i too am not sure abt the numbers, but going from what i see in my city, the rural backward and urban backward people are doing very well for themselves. atleast, they're not so bad that they cant afford a decent education. if the govt puts them on crutches right now with the intent of uplifting them, they'll get used to it... and easing them off (the regulations!) say 10 yrs later as you mentioned, will only enrage them, as it does now when any talk of scraping happens.


    jeez...i can go on and on....but heck, nothings gonna come out of it.....
     
    Ankur_Scorpio likes this.

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